>Subj: Re: Tragic technicaldiving
>Date: 03/03/98
>To: dlv@ga*.ne*
>
>actually dan your approach to the "guidlines" & your overall lack of
>concern for people that are (let's call  them)physicaly challenged is what
>set the tone for this entire thread.
>you must really understand that as Tom said in his post that there are
people
>that don't fit into your profile that can more than adequatly perform the
>tasks needed  for
>tech diving. there are also many "perfect specimens'' that without the
correct
>training or the proper experience are a danger to themselves & all around
>them.

Your wrong about this. It is my concern for lives of these people that has
caused me to take the LARGE amount of time I've spent, to address this
subject-----the fitness issue should not be "fought" by the "physically
challenged" as you call them, instead, they should seek out a top notch
personal trainer and try to attain a higher level of fitness. This will make
them safer and better qualified, physiologically, for tech diving, and make
them healthier in ther general life. And the tech diving, can be the "Goal",
and the "reason", that these people will finally pursue fitness, ultimately
to benefit in their everyday life.
I can't believe you are giving me this "perfect specimen" crap.  A tech
diver needs to develop many facets. Fitness alone ( no training, no skills,
wrong mind set, bad gear)  would make a dangerously bad diver. This is so
obvious I should not have to comment on it.  But I'll say this one more
time. A tech diver, and particularly a tech instructor, needs a high level
of fitness, in the same way a college student needs to be able to read. And
the better he can read, the greater his chances of succeeding in
college-----as opposed to the person who slides through high school, barely
able to read at all, and perhaps reading with lips moving, a testiment to
poor reading skills.  But reading skills alone will NOT make the college
student  go to the head of the class----without diligent study, reasonably
good IQ, aptitude in the classes taken, good instructors, and desire to
learn as much as possible, reading skills alone will be of little value.
Fitness  for a tech diver is very similar.  Its "our" reading skill.
Without fitness, you will never be a good tech or cave diver for extreme
depth or duration diving. Your gas exchange rate will be far to great a
liability to you---this including the processing of CO2 from whatever
exertion you become subjected to, and the offgassing of nitrogen and
helium......and even the actual gas consumption itself, since the ultra fit
can learn to lower their heart rates to 45 or 50 bpm while scootering on a
deep dive, and use a very small amount of gas, which also means ingassing
less for the duration at depth.  But again, fitness is ONLY the entry level
prereq skill here----the tech diver needs brains, motivation, a good
instructor, the right attitude, and a lot more. And if you were to decree
that all obese tech diver candidates were "fit" for tech diving, as is,
you'd be opening up college to the "illiterate", or worse.


>now they may be in the wrong place because they have fooled the instructor
or
>visa-versa, into thinking they belong there.
>
>it's comforting to know that you at least are capable of keeping yourself
>perfect for life. i & many others have setbacks & changes in our lives that
>might affect our weight or over all conditioning. yes in a perfect world we
>should all reevaluate ourselves to decide if we should still be doing what
>weve been doing for the past ten,twenty or thirty years. unfortunately not
>everyone is willing to make those decisions, easily. so what happens then
>"someone else" makes it for them?

With the exception of a very small percentage of the population, who have
bilogical imbalances which can not be corrected,  most fat or obese people
could become fit, with the proper diet and the proper exercise. The biggest
factor here is that they have to really want  fitness. If they do, there is
a way. I'll take this a step farther. There is a guy in West Palm Beach, who
is world famous in bodybuilding circles ( in the last Master Olympia, the
first and third place finishers were trainied by Terry---Vince Taylor and
James Roberts---and he has trained dozens of other top BB's) , and in
martial arts( his own record of having won  over 700 straight knockouts and
14 world championships in Kumite) , and in several endurance disciplines
(among those he's trained are Ironman legends Dave Scott, Larry Scott, and
Mike Pigg). His name is Terry Giles. He can take virtually ANYONE, and get
them to the fitness level they desire, barring medical contraindications for
this person engaging in exercise. I have personally seen what he can do, and
I have an  absolute certainty that he can do what I am saying.    From
seeing what he has done for several obese people, an example of what you
might expect, would be eating 6 meals per day, each with 25 to 30 grams of
protein depending on your muscle mass, the first 3 to 4 meals with starchy
carbs, the last 2 with fibrous carbs----all carbs chosen are low gycemic
index foods, Terry gives his people a list of exactly what qualifies for
each meal. Two gallons of water a day are normal with this diet, and
exercise is mandatory---weight workouts far more so than cardio, until the
majority of weight is off. As a fitness level approaches, the exercise
regimen would alter to be sport specific, in this case, cardio would then
come up greatly.
Some very heavy people are fat because of carbohydrate intolerance---these
people will get dramatic results, because the problem is so easy to correct.
The real issue with anyone on Terry's programs, is that they have to want
the result, bad enough to carry food in a small cooler, or protein powder in
water bottles, around with them all day, since they can NEVER go more than 3
hours without eating---essential to speed up the metabolism, and stabilize
blood sugar. And they have to do the gym workouts.
If anyone want's to know more about this, just send me private e-mail, and
I'll put you in contact with him.

>
>the ultimate decision for me to dive (deep - shallow -on air - on gas) is
mine
>to make the ultimate penalty will be paid by me. i don't believe that the
>instructor or the dive boat or the agency or anyone else is responsible for
my
>acts in the water.

Not  if this meant exponential deaths would occur, from mass marketing tech
diving to a huge poulation clearly unfit for the gas exchange demands of
great depth. To allow this, would absolutely cause a resulting federal
regulation.  Yes these people have the right to tech dive, but the better
agencies should not accept them---they should use an agency with separate
standards, that will allow clear distinctions to be made in the resulting
track record. The logical choice would be TDI. They have nothing to lose.
The good instructors that currently have TDI cards, would then switch to the
better affiliation, leaving the "cream" and the "cheese" at TDI.  In this
manner, the "inalienable right" to tech dive will continue to exist for the
obese and lazy, but its future will only be guaranteed as long as they can
evade federal regulation with their non-existant fitness standards. And to
repeat one more time, I DO NOT WANT ANY FEDERAL REGULATIONS. I do have a
fear that we may face them if mass marketing opens up tech diving to huge
numbers of unfit people who chose to exercies their "right" to dive.  So the
smart solution, is to have an agency for them, that will mangage to be
profitable, because their will be many who will seek them out.  And to have
elite agencies and instructors, catering only to the better candidates, and
having an expectation that regardless of the statistics which the obese
agency generates, the federal regs which could ensue from the "right to tech
dive agency", should never effect the diving priviledges of the elite
agencies.


>if i were to demonstrate by my actions or (lack of ) ability that i could
not
>perform the functions of the dive then i would want it brought to my
>attention. perhapse i am being foolish attempting the dive.

I'm glad we agree here :)

Regards,
Dan

>
>i know you would like to limit your comments to tech dives only but once
you
>open the gate..........!
>
>hank
>
>
>
>In a message dated 98-03-02 13:33:36 EST, you write:
>
><< Subj: Re: Tragic technicaldiving
> Date: 98-03-02 13:33:36 EST
> From: dlv@ga*.ne* (Dan Volker)
> To: GarlooEnt@ao*.co* (GarlooEnt), techdiver@aquanaut.com,
>wreckdiver@wr*.co*
> CC: Wahoojan@ao*.co*, Wahoo2001@ao*.co*, CAPTZEROOO@ao*.co*,
Ussfriel@ao*.co*
>
>
>
> -
> Subject: Re: Tragic technicaldiving
>
>
>
> >dan
> >as you can see by the "few" responses that the cocept of "you" setting
> >the requirements for qualifications is not going over well.
>
> I NEVER suggested I would be the person to "set" the standards. I am
> however, making suggestions which could help the people who ultimately
would
> set the standards.
>
>
> >we all seem to agree on the fact that the instructor & the instruction
> should
> >be unquestionably of the highest quality.
>
> Big problem. Some instructors are great, and some stink. Many are just OK.
> And the current fitness standards are a poor tool to help the instructors,
> with their job of shaping people into tech divers.
>
> >i have always had a problem with people who think the they are perfect
(or
> >always
> >correct) & that they are the ones who should decide for everyone else
what
> is
> >the
> >right way to do things.
> >you posed a bunch of questions to me about my grandmother & other items
> that
> >i think have been more eloquently addressed by others (thak you jammer).
> >i have one for you.
> >
> >    you are inn your perfect phyisical condition (i know this because i
> have
> >read your
> >chest pounding discusions with tom :-) , but what happens to you ten
years
> >from now if you happen to fall off the wagon & gain 20 or 25 lbs?
>
> I am in many different "lifestyle sports". None are impact sports like
> running, tennis, or racketball, etc., so I will be able to do all of them
> into my 70's ( cycling, kayaking, freediving, martial arts, mountain
biking)
> .. As long as I enjoy all of these sports, my general fitness level will
be
> high.
>
> >
> >(unfortunatly in life things change & you might get sick & gain the wt or
> you
> >might have a nervous breakdown & start eating uncontrolably:-).
> >who will decide for you hat that point that you are fit or not to
continue
> to
> >dive?
> >are you actually proposing that we should only "control" the new people
but
> >forget
> >about the current divers?
>
> Trying to "uncertify" people would be a nightmare. But if enough
> physiological work is done, fitness standards can be published. Each of us
> can use them to help us judge whether we are ok to tech dive or not---and
if
> it looks like we are not, then we should have good targets already defined
> for us.
>
>
> >
> >there are already physical specifications in all of the programs that i
am
> >aware of.
> >i see no reason to change them. the istructors should be capable of
> >determining if a person is physicaly able to complet the certification &
do
> >the dives (in a safe manor).
>
>
> Current fitness standards fail to adress the more important issues of gas
> exchange. Even the best instructors need more help with a tool that can do
> this, and there are plenty of "bad" instructors, who look like poster boys
> for dangerously low gas exchange rates. And these guys will ignore
fitness,
> because right now they are allowed to.
>
> >yes i agree with all who question the ability of instructors who "cheat"
on
> >that responsibility.
> >
> >we all are disturbed by the people that die in this sport no matter what
> level
> >of diving they have reached. but i hate to tell you that the number
> (although
> >even one is too many) is not "huge" as you said. the diving related
deaths
> in
> >the entire world has been under 100 for years. the huge number of those
> occur
> >at depths below 130ft
>
> I'm not making these arguements for recreational diving---the mandatory
> VO2max tests-----this is for tech. And if you look at the TDI deaths
alone,
> in the last few years, you will see how far off you are on the important
> statistics.
>
> >
> >deep diving has its problems as does all of diving. IMHO the biggest
> problem
> >is lack of experience not lack of conditioning. this is a problem that is
> >rampant at all levels of diving today.
> >hank
> >
>
> Fitness is only one small element of tech diving. Repeat...fitness is only
> one small element of tech diving.....but it can't be ignored.  Right now,
> for all practical purposes, it IS being ignored.
>
> Regards,
> Dan Volker
> South Florida Dive Journal
> http://www.sfdj.com/
> The Internet magazine for u/w photography and mpeg video
> >
> >--
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> >
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