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> Mike, > All I'm really doing is adding one more training aspect to the > certification. I imagine you will agree that EVERY new diver should be > "forced" to go through a "training class" and "training dives" to ultimately > be granted the certification----your opinion above could be taken out of > context, to imply the "personal Freedom" loving divers want to have their > deep certification cards mailed to them, Not advocating that. > and they don't feel they should have to learn any skills, any information, > or demonstrate any ability--- Not advocating that. > it is simply their right to dive deep if they want, Am stongly advocating this > and IANTD or TDI ought to just mail them a card if they pay for it. Not advocating that. But ya gotta understand I care very little for certification and very much for instruction... very different things. I've had a lot of instruction that I never got c-cards for and I don't really care about them. I also search out what I consider to be the best and most rigorous instruction I can find. I have no issue with an instructor telling me they don't think I am ready for something, as long as they tell me why. There have been times I agreed, and times when I felt they were wrong. Some of those times I have accomplished things via an alternate path. If you as an instructor have a student who you do not feel should be certified, then don't. But recognize that they have the right to seek alternate instruction (which may even be self-teaching) when other forms of instruction are denied them. If they so choose. In the end if they want to do a certain type of dive, I see that as their right. They may have to line up their own boat, gas fills, whatever, but in the end if they are determined they will find a way, and it may not include meeting your fitness standards. And ya know, I'd rather have this imperfect reality than the others. > I do not think this is what you are suggesting, but it is still related. All > I want to do is add a fitness standard to the skill set that must be > completed. Anyone willing to "train" to become a tech diver, should be able > to accomplish the minimum fitness standards, if they want to tech dive bad > enough. The ONLY divers that will get excluded, are the horrible fat slobs > with zero aerobics, no will power to fitness train for their goal, and the > ones that smoke several packs of cigarettes or ounces of pot daily---these > need to be excluded for their fitness failures, or the rampant deaths their > certifications will result in, Please point to the scientific data to back up your claim. Here is the crux of the issue as I see it. It is very easy (and probably correct) to say that the diver with a high ratio of body fat is MORE AT RISK than the diver with less body fat. But (IMO) until you can prove scientifically what that risk is, where the % body fat renders the current tables inapplicable, the point where the models are no longer valid for the diver in question, then you have no business trying to enforce your BELIEF on others. Because again, thats all it is, your belief. Well-intentioned I recognize. But just as you judge the risk for those people to be TOO high, so others (land-lubbers, Jaws-paranoids, etc) might simply say diving itself is SOOOOOO risky that we want to protect those crazy divers from themselves and thus ban all diving. How would you feel about that? What we are talking about is quantifying the risk. Something VERY hard to do. If risk is a probability, then what is the MORE risk value from having low VO2? If the risk for a certain dive is 2%, is the MORE another 0.5%, or an additional 15%? Its ok to acknowledge that it is MORE, but it is NOT ok (IMO) to decide for someone else what their risk limit should be. If you want to decide that you don't want your name on their c-card, hey sure. > This will get scary. Frankly Dan I find the idea of someone else deciding my risk limits for me (without my request or permission) very scary. In response to this debate, someone sent me a quote (apparently) from the court case where Gentile was fighting to dive the Monitor. The judge wrote.. "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks, for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches -- that is the right and privilege of any free American." - Judge Hugh J. Dolan Gentile vs. NOAA Docket #951-193 I'm not advocating people DO some of these things, I'm advocating their RIGHT to decide for themselves if they do it. Mike -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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