Dan
reply to para 1
Ok Dan, this makes a lot of sense and yes I do agree that a grossly
overweight person is in trouble in the water. I have someone very close
to me who is about 100 pounds overweight, who I refuce to allow him to
get back into technical diving until he drops most of the weight, not
that I can really stop him it just so happens he is willing to listen to
me. Obiviously and if you read the many articles I write on it and the
new text materials we are publishing exercise is a key element in
health. Collaterial circulation etc, efficient gas exchange. Combined
with good breathing techniques(something I teach in all my dive and
karate clases) and you get maximum results.


para 2 
we overall agree on this, but as evident in your para too there are
diferent atletic demands on the physiology and sometimes a trade in Vo2
max for other needed functions is made. Also accodring to most of the
recent exercise physiology material I have read even weight lifters who
do even limted aeorbic develop through just repeated exposure an
aeorbric benefit in there workouts. This is something that I have had
difficulty in understanding as it is out of sync with all my previous
eductaion but, seems to be valid in new studies.  

para 3

Ok, we do and have always agreed on fitness and we do of course agree
Vo2 max is important otherwise you would not be able to ultilize oxygen.
I guess I still feel if an athelete can do 30 to 40 minutes of training
at 80 to 90% max effort that they should be in shape regardless of body
weight.  I'm not 100% certain how much bodyweight alone if the person
exercises all the time is going to diminish vo2 max or overall atheletic
performance. I do feel overweight and doing deep dives is personally
dangerous due to DCS and a lot of factors. I do think being overweight
effects and diminishes the maximum atheletic capability of a person. But
we both know heavy people who can just bull through everything. one of
my old football coaches breought this home to me when a tackle on the
team was creaming me everytime I ran through his hole. He simply stated
Tom, there is nothing better than a good little man(at the time I was
around 190 and muscled up rather thickly due to heavy traing for
football, much more muscle mass than I carry today) except a good big
man. So I think there is an individual compromise point based on that
persons capacity to ppreform even when "compromised by being overweight.
that still leaves that individual competent and strong in the water or
other areas of activity. Would you agree on this. 
I really wish we could get funding to do extensive testing on
performance not based dsoley on Vo2 max but including it and have this
related to persons of;
Different fitness levels, smokers vs no smokers including atheletes who
smoke, body weight considerations combined with those who do workout and
those who do not, It would be great to have all this data in a neat and
concise package.You and I would obiviously predict the same results on
the outcome but it would be nice to quantively analyize the data for
performace decrement. this would be great for allowing divers to adjust
their risk management decisions prior to any kind of dive.   


par5a 4or so
Dan you do not need to illustrate to me the dangers of partying all
night and doing it all over again. You are only doing what i teach and
what I yell at these young men about. Fact is that they do it and
because they train so hard and are still so young get by with it. They
are not doing 250 foot dives they do do 100 foot and shallower 2 to 3
mile full speed swims, most of the time between 20 and 40 feet. They
just have this ability to preform exceptionally well. Maybe though that
is why I can keep up with them in the water. however difference is one
hour later they are back to normal and i' paying for it even though I do
gut it out and stay with them on the runs. But after that I crash and
they get going again. do not mistake the partying they have some drinks,
dance and stay up late I have not seen any of them staggering drunk yet.
If fact if there CO saw that theywould most likely be transferred out of
these particular units.

Dan on the heavy drinkers and four packs a day, minimum exercise divers
we would agree 100% on their degree of risk of dying in the water these
activites do not coeexist well.


Dan, the discussionwe are having I do not look at as you or I trying to
bust each others chops, in the overall topic of fitness we have a lot of
common ground. I cannot ever remember not working outsince I first
started boxing at age 9 and doing my Charles Atlas couse at that time.
The Atlas couse actually worked pretty good for building some muscle
mass. I also made my decison to be a diver at age 9 after reading a book
on spounge diving and then an old Richard Windmark film on UDT divers
totally sold me on the idea, thus that is all i have done my entire
life.

I stil feel there are degrees of fitness that are aceptable and I know
too many big but good athletes to not beleive you can be big and be in
shape.

I would really be interested in working with you or a physiology group
in estabalishing some form of minimum fitness guidelines foe each level
of diving.This would be something valid, scientific and reasonable not
something requiring each person to be a super athlete or as dedicated to
training as we are. You and I train because we love it and are most
likely additcted to it. My weight limit is based not so much on pounds
as it is when i hit a certain weight I feel like the extra pounds are
dirt on my body so psychologically I'm forced to drop those excess
pounds, Do you have that obsession too? When I miss a workout I
expewrience a tremoundous sens of guilt how about you? If so we are both
addicts.

If you go through our standards you will see at each instructor level
there are some minimum fitness swims. We have a lot of people who will
not do our programs as they agree with a statement Bret Gilliam made
once that the IANTD programs are too UDT like. Instead of being insulted
we took that as a compliment as UDT teaches divers to survive and that
is what we really desire to do and how we have tried to structure our
programs.

Dan no challenges but I really do wish you were down here as I honestly
would enjoy working out with you in karate and other areas as well. Hell
I may even buy a new cycle and retire my old one. Jim has been trying to
get me to do that for years anyway and ride with him. He still hacks out
about 4 2 1/2 hour to 3 hour cycle workouts each week. He is out of my
league on a cycle but maybe I could catch up, as I really do not know
how well I could do as I really do not even know at what speeds I cycle
, in my neighborhood I pass every other cyclist I encounter so I really
have no idea of what my speed is. my workout is about one third
sprinting and two thirdes at as hard a pace as I can substain in between
the sprints. I do not even know how far I travel, just like the other
day I cut the 2 minutes off the combined run cycle time for the route I
do this on. Maybe I will break out the speedometer and measure my
course.

For that matter I pass most of the cylist in my neighborhood when I'm on
my roller blades and I keep that as near max as I can plus sprins also.


Tom
> Sorry for not making this clear. A 10 % bodyfat level is for all practical
> purposes, being zero pounds overweight. Most of us will be a few pounds
> overweight, which is fine. As long as its only a few pounds. As we approach
> 20 pounds overweight, it starts to impact our gas exchange heavily. To a
> cyclist, it  could mean the difference from being able to have a max pack
> speed they can hang on to be 26 mph, or 29 mph---just losing 15 of the 20
> pounds could get this cyclist up from the 26 mph pace maximum, to a much
> faster group that averages 29, and now this would be the same percieved
> exertion.   To a deep diver, 20 pounds will make a difference, but only in
> the most extreme depths and durations, with accelerated deco. However, 60
> pounds, 80 pounds one hundred pounds over, now we are talking extremely bad
> gas exchange, as well as poor peripherol circulation problems, not to
> mention the poor circulation in the fat itself.
> 
> >
> > It has been my experience that a lot of overweight people are superb
> >atheletes. No they would not ride in the Tour De France,( with the
> >speeds of averaging 30 to 35 mph you posted you should be in that race
> >as you would be amoung the top competitors in it).
> 
> Actually, I carry too much muscle mass. I'm more of a sprinter. The tour
> riders are much lighter guys, this allows them to climb long mountain stages
> better than a muscular rider. And they are also typically genetic freaks,
> with VO2 max values way above mine.
> 
> Yes this is the group
> >that has the highest Vo2 of all atheletes according to what I have read.
> >But how would they do in a boxing ring or english channel swim or
> >football game?
> 
> They would have no skill set for boxing, and the channel swimmer trains
> different muscle groups, and relies on a reasonably decent VO2 max ( though
> not nearly what the Tour guys have), but also benefit from their higher
> subcutaneous fat levels for warmth, which would cause much lower VO2 max
> values than a competitive cyclist could tolerate. As I said before, football
> players typically have low VO2 max scores compared to cyclists or other
> endurance athletes, because the sport they are  in does not  require as much
> aerobic power as it does anaerobic power. Football is a series of anaerobic
> efforts, much more extreme anaerobic only for lineman than for wide
> recievers( who may use some aerobic), but still true of all of them ( except
> the field goal kicker---unless the fear of being clobbered gets his heart
> rate up to anaerobic levels :)
> 
> --snip
> >I also know as you most likely do many people who dive every day that do
> >little or no training but are in excellent condition for what they do
> >DIVING. In fact these are most lokely the most fit for doing diving
> >alone. Many cave divers do long swims rountinely in full gear, they use
> >the muscles required for this activity more than we do, they practice
> >breathing for this activity more than we do. I do a lot of diving but
> >not as much as some of these people do. There are cave instructors and
> >dive masters at resorts who do 400 to 500 dives a year(every year),and
> >that is a lot of time in the water. Of course some of that time would
> >not really be comparable to working out but yet it does increase
> >waterpersonship.
> >
> >While I encourage everyone to be in shape, I do not think you have to be
> >a dedicated athelete to be a safe diver or safe instructor. I do not
> >think you need to be void of all body fat to preform in the water. I
> >think this point is well proven in many areas. So unlike you I beleive
> >there are many divers who are superb who may not meet your no fat
> >criteria. i do not think someone overweight is automatically a scumbag
> >or less than human. I also disagree with you that being overweight
> >prohibts one from being in good physcial condition.I was watching a 10
> >round heavy weight boxing match on ESPN last night both atheletes fought
> >hard all 10 rounds and both definitely had in the 20% body fat range.
> 
> Tom, I am not calling an athlete with 20% bodyfat a huge fat slob.
> The issue I raise is that gas exchange ability form one person to the next ,
> can be quantified by a VO2 max test. There IS going to be a level where both
> of us are going to agree that gas exchange is so limited by the person's
> physiology, that they will be unsafe at extreme depth. If the athlete has a
> value of 65 ml/kg of bodyweight, the average diver is at 40 ml/kg , and the
> horribly overweight diver is at 2 ml/kg of bodyweight, you will certainly
> agree this person will not be capable of handling CO2 exchange if the 250
> foot dive they are on gets their heart rate racing. This same low VO2 max
> score will also indicate poor off-gassing of Helium and Nitrogen. I know you
> know this :)
> What do you say that right now we don't worry so much about what actual
> weight a person has----lets start getting VO2max tests done, and then see
> the picture that develops as we find what VO2 levels show such serious gas
> exchange problems, that they exhibit problems quickly in our test series of
> chamber runs.
> 
> --snip
> 
> >
> >I guess in your model of a human being (a diving one that is) anyone who
> >is overweight period, smokes(and I really wish everyone I know and care
> >for would give up this dangerous habit)or drinks (On this count I'm
> >certainly guilty as I have my two and sometimes even three glasses of
> >wine after 6PM every day) is a useless slop who should not be allowed in
> >the water, and should not be respected by anyone. Surely you are not
> >serious about this. Your message seems to be "duplicate me or do not
> >consider yourself a worthy human being".
> 
> Tom, we are trying to set up guidelines, not "clones". There is an extreme
> side of dive behavior which is at odds with fitness---this being the 4 pack
> a day smoker, the alcoholic, etc. Extreme behavior like this will destroy
> physiological performance capabilities. Please don't tell me about the
> genetic freak you know who smokes a pack a day, and can still win a bike
> race. There are probably a few one legged snow skiiers that could beat you
> on Look Ma at Vail, but they won't beat you because they have one leg, they
> will beat you  "despite it".
> 
> >
> >So although I wish peole would not smoke I know people who smoke who can
> >swim, run, and fight all day, I train with some of these people from
> >military units a few times a year. They are young and the smokes have
> >not caught up yet. If they did not smoke in my opnion they would be in
> >even better shape. Opps these same gusy can party all night to and get
> >up early in the morning and do it all over again, guess that is the
> >beauty of youth.
> 
> OK Tom, what physiological effects will be caused by drinking and partying
> all night, only to dive the next day???? Lets start with
> vasoconstriction----this will interfere with off-gassing, and make it more
> difficult for red blood cells to pass through capillaries, potentially in
> concert with effects of depth and partial pressures, may help cause partial
> blockages. What about the dehydrating effects of alcohol???Don't you see how
> this will cause less soluablity of the gas, in blood which has less water to
> dissolve in---does the word hypersaturation ring a bell?  What about sleep
> deprivation???Most of us are familiar with muscle spasms and knots, as well
> as headaches from pulling all nighters---all effects of constricted
> circulation ----Does this sound like a good condition to mix with
> decompressing from a 250 foot trimix dive???
> 
> >I have a lot of friends i enjoy diving with who are not atheletes by
> >mine or your definition who some of them are overweight, some are
> >smokers and many drink at least a beer or two daily. A lot of these
> >people are really good in the water.
> 
> Many of these people will be great in the water on recreational
> depths----its when gas exchange gets critical at deeper depths, that our
> discussion refers to. This is where these people are not safe. Unless they
> train and "make" themselves achieve a safer VO2max score.
> 
> -snip
> >
> >Dan, on aging and muscle mass and conditioning at the level of one
> >individual vs himself at age 60 and 21, have you totqlly figured out how
> >to stop the biological clock. Do you know how the have the GH receptors
> >continure to release GH at the rate it did at 21. I do feel I have
> >offset the clock but I certainly am not at my personel 21 yeasr old
> >stage. i take supplements and 4evetrything,, I;m even looking into the
> >possibility of taking pro GH1 which is suppossed to allow the GH
> >receptors to release GH more efficiently, I just need to gain more
> >knowledge about it befors I add it to my supplement diet.
> 
> Tom, Growth hormone releasers and Free Radical removers (like C and E) are
> smart for all of us to take. But this misses the issue. Their is a minimum
> fitness for deep diving, and we can't loosen up our minimum standards
> because someone ages---any more than a 70 year old man can race in the Tour
> de  France.  There is no age -graded racing in the Tour, and there is no
> "age graded" diving once you get really deep.
> >
> >
> -snip
> 
> >
> >I did not know Dituri was one of Georges guys but he is also one of the
> >IANTD guys. What are you guys doing going down the list and seeing those
> >who workout and stating mine not yours, I think you will find a lot of
> >IANTD guys who also happen to be WKPP divers, I did not realize they
> >were owned by someone.  Joey, is one of our IT's and on our BOA( the BOA
> >is the group that develops and changes standards), the entire BOA list
> >is with our standards on the web page. I trained him in mix and cave
> >diving and on the Halcyon. I talk with him a couple of times a week. We
> >are rather good friends.
> 
> Tom, I'm really NOT trying to bust your chops :) , and this really is NOT
> about me trying to "challenge" you......or any of the guys you have that are
> fit....the idea here is to show that a fit diver, and Tom, this DOES include
> you, is going to score better than a very fat diver with no aerobic
> training. And we will then show at what point the low VO2 max vales will
> become an indicator that a diver may not be able to survive even the tiniest
> increase in heart rate, as in what may occur in just "seeing" something
> impressive. There will be a scale, with an obviously unsafe area, an less
> safe area, a middle ground and also much safer zones. This will be an area
> for us all to agree on. But we need to get started on the first step, and
> that's the easily quantifyable VO2 max tests.
> 
> Regards,
> Dan Volker
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