>Dan
>
>I would love to do just a pure endurance swim in full gear with you, I
>may or may not be as fast as you,( I need to work on my dog paddle some)
>.This is the kind of thing I enjoy and I imagine you do to, so it should
>be a lot of fun for both of us. I think it will really be enjoyable.
-----snip
>
>On the discussion as what it appears to me you are stating overall as
>would apply to all of us divers, and please correct me if I have
>misunderstood your message. But it appearsas if by your guidelines I
>guess anyone with over  10% body fat is not physcially competent and
>anyone with 10% or less is perfect. Interesting when you look at English
>channel and other long distance cold water swimmers, guess they are all
>unfit as they certainly carry and deliberately put fat on in training
>for those swims so they can maintain body heat.

Sorry for not making this clear. A 10 % bodyfat level is for all practical
purposes, being zero pounds overweight. Most of us will be a few pounds
overweight, which is fine. As long as its only a few pounds. As we approach
20 pounds overweight, it starts to impact our gas exchange heavily. To a
cyclist, it  could mean the difference from being able to have a max pack
speed they can hang on to be 26 mph, or 29 mph---just losing 15 of the 20
pounds could get this cyclist up from the 26 mph pace maximum, to a much
faster group that averages 29, and now this would be the same percieved
exertion.   To a deep diver, 20 pounds will make a difference, but only in
the most extreme depths and durations, with accelerated deco. However, 60
pounds, 80 pounds one hundred pounds over, now we are talking extremely bad
gas exchange, as well as poor peripherol circulation problems, not to
mention the poor circulation in the fat itself.

>
> It has been my experience that a lot of overweight people are superb
>atheletes. No they would not ride in the Tour De France,( with the
>speeds of averaging 30 to 35 mph you posted you should be in that race
>as you would be amoung the top competitors in it).

Actually, I carry too much muscle mass. I'm more of a sprinter. The tour
riders are much lighter guys, this allows them to climb long mountain stages
better than a muscular rider. And they are also typically genetic freaks,
with VO2 max values way above mine.


Yes this is the group
>that has the highest Vo2 of all atheletes according to what I have read.
>But how would they do in a boxing ring or english channel swim or
>football game?

They would have no skill set for boxing, and the channel swimmer trains
different muscle groups, and relies on a reasonably decent VO2 max ( though
not nearly what the Tour guys have), but also benefit from their higher
subcutaneous fat levels for warmth, which would cause much lower VO2 max
values than a competitive cyclist could tolerate. As I said before, football
players typically have low VO2 max scores compared to cyclists or other
endurance athletes, because the sport they are  in does not  require as much
aerobic power as it does anaerobic power. Football is a series of anaerobic
efforts, much more extreme anaerobic only for lineman than for wide
recievers( who may use some aerobic), but still true of all of them ( except
the field goal kicker---unless the fear of being clobbered gets his heart
rate up to anaerobic levels :)


--snip
>I also know as you most likely do many people who dive every day that do
>little or no training but are in excellent condition for what they do
>DIVING. In fact these are most lokely the most fit for doing diving
>alone. Many cave divers do long swims rountinely in full gear, they use
>the muscles required for this activity more than we do, they practice
>breathing for this activity more than we do. I do a lot of diving but
>not as much as some of these people do. There are cave instructors and
>dive masters at resorts who do 400 to 500 dives a year(every year),and
>that is a lot of time in the water. Of course some of that time would
>not really be comparable to working out but yet it does increase
>waterpersonship.
>
>While I encourage everyone to be in shape, I do not think you have to be
>a dedicated athelete to be a safe diver or safe instructor. I do not
>think you need to be void of all body fat to preform in the water. I
>think this point is well proven in many areas. So unlike you I beleive
>there are many divers who are superb who may not meet your no fat
>criteria. i do not think someone overweight is automatically a scumbag
>or less than human. I also disagree with you that being overweight
>prohibts one from being in good physcial condition.I was watching a 10
>round heavy weight boxing match on ESPN last night both atheletes fought
>hard all 10 rounds and both definitely had in the 20% body fat range.

Tom, I am not calling an athlete with 20% bodyfat a huge fat slob.
The issue I raise is that gas exchange ability form one person to the next ,
can be quantified by a VO2 max test. There IS going to be a level where both
of us are going to agree that gas exchange is so limited by the person's
physiology, that they will be unsafe at extreme depth. If the athlete has a
value of 65 ml/kg of bodyweight, the average diver is at 40 ml/kg , and the
horribly overweight diver is at 2 ml/kg of bodyweight, you will certainly
agree this person will not be capable of handling CO2 exchange if the 250
foot dive they are on gets their heart rate racing. This same low VO2 max
score will also indicate poor off-gassing of Helium and Nitrogen. I know you
know this :)
What do you say that right now we don't worry so much about what actual
weight a person has----lets start getting VO2max tests done, and then see
the picture that develops as we find what VO2 levels show such serious gas
exchange problems, that they exhibit problems quickly in our test series of
chamber runs.

--snip


>
>I guess in your model of a human being (a diving one that is) anyone who
>is overweight period, smokes(and I really wish everyone I know and care
>for would give up this dangerous habit)or drinks (On this count I'm
>certainly guilty as I have my two and sometimes even three glasses of
>wine after 6PM every day) is a useless slop who should not be allowed in
>the water, and should not be respected by anyone. Surely you are not
>serious about this. Your message seems to be "duplicate me or do not
>consider yourself a worthy human being".

Tom, we are trying to set up guidelines, not "clones". There is an extreme
side of dive behavior which is at odds with fitness---this being the 4 pack
a day smoker, the alcoholic, etc. Extreme behavior like this will destroy
physiological performance capabilities. Please don't tell me about the
genetic freak you know who smokes a pack a day, and can still win a bike
race. There are probably a few one legged snow skiiers that could beat you
on Look Ma at Vail, but they won't beat you because they have one leg, they
will beat you  "despite it".

>
>So although I wish peole would not smoke I know people who smoke who can
>swim, run, and fight all day, I train with some of these people from
>military units a few times a year. They are young and the smokes have
>not caught up yet. If they did not smoke in my opnion they would be in
>even better shape. Opps these same gusy can party all night to and get
>up early in the morning and do it all over again, guess that is the
>beauty of youth.

OK Tom, what physiological effects will be caused by drinking and partying
all night, only to dive the next day???? Lets start with
vasoconstriction----this will interfere with off-gassing, and make it more
difficult for red blood cells to pass through capillaries, potentially in
concert with effects of depth and partial pressures, may help cause partial
blockages. What about the dehydrating effects of alcohol???Don't you see how
this will cause less soluablity of the gas, in blood which has less water to
dissolve in---does the word hypersaturation ring a bell?  What about sleep
deprivation???Most of us are familiar with muscle spasms and knots, as well
as headaches from pulling all nighters---all effects of constricted
circulation ----Does this sound like a good condition to mix with
decompressing from a 250 foot trimix dive???


>I have a lot of friends i enjoy diving with who are not atheletes by
>mine or your definition who some of them are overweight, some are
>smokers and many drink at least a beer or two daily. A lot of these
>people are really good in the water.

Many of these people will be great in the water on recreational
depths----its when gas exchange gets critical at deeper depths, that our
discussion refers to. This is where these people are not safe. Unless they
train and "make" themselves achieve a safer VO2max score.

-snip
>
>Dan, on aging and muscle mass and conditioning at the level of one
>individual vs himself at age 60 and 21, have you totqlly figured out how
>to stop the biological clock. Do you know how the have the GH receptors
>continure to release GH at the rate it did at 21. I do feel I have
>offset the clock but I certainly am not at my personel 21 yeasr old
>stage. i take supplements and 4evetrything,, I;m even looking into the
>possibility of taking pro GH1 which is suppossed to allow the GH
>receptors to release GH more efficiently, I just need to gain more
>knowledge about it befors I add it to my supplement diet.

Tom, Growth hormone releasers and Free Radical removers (like C and E) are
smart for all of us to take. But this misses the issue. Their is a minimum
fitness for deep diving, and we can't loosen up our minimum standards
because someone ages---any more than a 70 year old man can race in the Tour
de  France.  There is no age -graded racing in the Tour, and there is no
"age graded" diving once you get really deep.
>
>
-snip

>
>I did not know Dituri was one of Georges guys but he is also one of the
>IANTD guys. What are you guys doing going down the list and seeing those
>who workout and stating mine not yours, I think you will find a lot of
>IANTD guys who also happen to be WKPP divers, I did not realize they
>were owned by someone.  Joey, is one of our IT's and on our BOA( the BOA
>is the group that develops and changes standards), the entire BOA list
>is with our standards on the web page. I trained him in mix and cave
>diving and on the Halcyon. I talk with him a couple of times a week. We
>are rather good friends.

Tom, I'm really NOT trying to bust your chops :) , and this really is NOT
about me trying to "challenge" you......or any of the guys you have that are
fit....the idea here is to show that a fit diver, and Tom, this DOES include
you, is going to score better than a very fat diver with no aerobic
training. And we will then show at what point the low VO2 max vales will
become an indicator that a diver may not be able to survive even the tiniest
increase in heart rate, as in what may occur in just "seeing" something
impressive. There will be a scale, with an obviously unsafe area, an less
safe area, a middle ground and also much safer zones. This will be an area
for us all to agree on. But we need to get started on the first step, and
that's the easily quantifyable VO2 max tests.

Regards,
Dan Volker


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