>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>
>> To: Dan Volker <dlv@ga*.ne*>
>> Date: Tuesday, February 24, 1998 2:21 PM
>> Subject: Re: Fw: Divers Supply, IANTD, Tom Mount and tragic technical
diving
>>
>> >Dan

>> Tom, you have many of the important facts of the tragedy already.
>> 1. We know Andre was close to 100 pounds overweight.
>
>Dan I will comment on this one. Wrong more like 20 to 30, and he did
>workout, he did 4 x week two mile swims in fins faster than I can. i
>last swim with him around november and he blistered me. I'm a good
>strong swimmer and I'm always in good shape.

Tom, when a guy is around 6 foot tall and has average muscle mass, he can
hold 20 pounds of fat without looking like he's really fat. When the guy has
a HUGE fat belly, with big rolls around his back, etc., he is alot more than
20 pounds overweight.  The standard of fitness here is NOT what you read in
a fitness guide for men, with age gradations----you must fit the same
fitness parameters as the 21 yearold. Some may prefer to say for a man his
age he  was 20 pounds overweight----I'm saying, he can't use his age as a
crutch to justify less fitness----if he was 21 years old, how much
overweight was he????If you still insist only 20 pounds, lets get some
photos of him and I'll have an analysis done. As to his swimming speed, I
have heard that from some.... George tells me your best stroke is the dog
paddle <grin> and perhaps you might not want to compare your swim speed with
someone who trains like George or myself :) Care to do an "upcurrent"  race
dive with us  from one end of breakers reef to as far as you can go on a
tank of air??? Just for fun :)



>> 2. We know he did not use a safety diver or a float ball, on a deep
training
>> dive with a student.
>
>
>> 3. We know the student had approximate 83 dives under his belt, according
to
>> the wife and father.
>.
>
>> 4. We were told they were all diving Steel 98's, four apiece, by the
>> survivor.
>
>> 5. We know the student was diving OMS bondage wings.
>
>What is the signifance of this statement, So does Billy Deans and
>hundereds of other divers that cettainly is not a safety violation

When you know the bondage style reduces bouyancy, and in this case, he has
already chosen 4 tanks which will make him incredibly negative at 250 feet
with a wetsuit, the gear choice for wings should be one which could
guarantee lift at the bottom---from the tests George and other WKPP divers
have done on the OMS wings with bungee nonsense, the lift capacity of the
wings were severely decreased. This made the OMS wings a BAD choice.

>
>> 6. We know they were wearing wetsuits, on a 250 foot deep dive, and that
the
>> temp guage of the survivor read 59 degrees. Each dive we have done in
this
>> area showed temperatures from 58 to 61 degrees. We KNOW that this would
>> create conditions of hypothermia in most divers, within 15 minutes into
this
>> dive, in many , much sooner.
>
>> 7. We know that a competent instructor would have terminated the dive on
>> realizing he was subjecting a student to 59 degree water, in a suit
bearing
>> no thermal protection, on a  250 foot deep dive.
>
>But do we know the temperature the day they dived, or the current
>conditions.As we all know the temp varies a lot down here indeep water.
>

Yes.....The police got the printout of the dive watch worn by the survivor.
It showed bottom temperature at 59 degrees. We also know the bottom current
was nil, while the top was over 3 mph.  To divers on the bottom, this feels
like a dive without any current.

>> 8. We also KNOW that the student, on his second training tech dive,
should
>> have had his gas consumption monitored. By the account of the survivor,
the
>> student ran out of gas. This will be confirmed on our recovery of the
body.
>> 9. We would LIKE TO KNOW,  that if TOM MOUNT had been the instructor,
that
>> Mike Elkins WOULD NOT have done a 250 foot deep dive this early in his
>> diving experience. We KNOW this is WRONG.
>
>I think you know the aswer to that if what you are stating is true.>

Tom, I do not beleive you would even consider taking this poor guy down 250
feet, given his experience level.

>>
>These points are not in dispute.
>>
>> >
>> >Third I cannot comment on the accident because in any accident your
>> >lawyers tell you not to voice opnions until facts are known and the
>> >issue is resolved. I nor no one in this office will be discussing this
>> >accident.
>
>
>> >
>> >There are some things I can comment on one is IANTD does have and does
>> >enforce its standards. The standards do specify experience. They in
>> >general address equipment. They specify skills and theory requirements.
>> >Instructors do have to meet standard physcial levles and they do timed
>> >fitness swims to become an instructor. They also do technical rescue
>> >skills. All of this is in the standards.
>>
>> Tom, you need standards to include use of a safety diver when a student
is
>> on a tech training dive at 200 feet or deeper.  This would also include
>> proper drift dive proceedure, and proper use of a float ball or torpedo
>> float.
>>
>> >If you would like to read the standards you may do so on the IANTD
>> >webpage.
>> >
>> >Dan, over the years I have recovered a lot of bodies, i quit doing this
>> >service as it began to really get to me after more than 120 of them.  I
>> >have seen my share of deaths from a variety of aspects. I have had some
>> >of my best life long friends get killed in various activities not just
>> >diving.
>> >
>> >In all these instances I have seen a common structure that lead to the
>> >accident. Fatality or whatever and they fall overall in the following
>> >categories.
>> >
>> >1. Human error or mistakes whichever term one prefers to use this is
>> >most likely the greatest cause of accidents. It can be contributed to
>> >lack of training or education, attitude, or numerous other problem
>> >areas.
>> >
>> >
>> >The dive plan described to me did cover emergency procedures and a
>> >safety diver. As stated described to me.  it specified the gases, there
>> >were logs of the diving gases as explained to me anyway.
>>
>> Christ Tom, there WAS NO SAFETY DIVER....THERE WAS NO CREW ON THE BOAT.
The
>> tech student's wife was seasick in the cabin, with no gear on. EVEN if
you
>> want to allow yourself the luxary of pretending she was a safety diver
>>  even though a safety diver needs the solution skills of an
instructor---and
>> she was a novice herself) ---without a float ball, there would be no way
a
>> safety diver could go down to check at a predetermined point if an
emergency
>> had occurred.
>>
>> >While I would not dive in South Florida with out a float ball or some
>> >type of marker it is not uncommon for some people to do this. I have
>> >dived the bimbini wall cozumel and numerous other places on drift dives
>> >without a float ball. I suspect some of you have also.   Do you know how
>> >many people would say putting a float ball on a line and anchoring it to
>> >the wreck and then going upstream and dropping down followed by a drift
>> >to the wreck is unsafe. A lot of people think it is unsafe yet most of
>> >us in south Florida do this as a great way to use the environment and
>> >current instead of fighting it.,
>>
>> PADI likes to say drift diving is a specialty, which needs to be taken as
a
>> course.  For Drift Diving at 250 feet, in a 3.5 mph surface current,
where
>> ther may be a bottom current or may not, there is an EXPONENTIALLY
GREATER
>> NEED for IANTD standards to demand proper use of a float ball, and
knowledge
>> of deep drift diving skills....This should further suggest use of a
scooter
>> where no bottom current will complicate towing the ball in a stiff
surface
>> current.  Tom, we have done this for years without incidents. Its not
like
>> we JUST started drift diving the deep reefs yesterday---we have a good
body
>> of experience to suggest standards with, and you should be privy to this
>> experience.. Maybe you should visit us in Palm Beach and participate in
one
>> of the recovery attempts, and get up to speed on proper deep drift
>> techniques. You are welcome to participate. Let me know if you would like
>> to, we can even have an extra scooter for you.
>>
>Dan I beleive I have done drift dives for as many years as you have,
>maybe even more without accidents.

Tom, I'm not trying to have a pissing contest with you here.  One clear
fact, is that Palm Beach County has some of the most spectacular deep drift
dives on deep ledges you can find anywhere. And the surface current is among
the largest any deep diver will ever encounter---this makes it an ideal
place for you to base a Deep Drift Diving Specialty. MUCH better than the
relatively lame currents in Broward County or Dade. As I said before, come
out with us, and we'll show you what we are talking about.

>> >
>> >The last time I was on Errols boat Lee, James, either Carla or Carrie
>> >and I dropped down on the wreck this way. At the same time Bill Mee, I
>> >think Errol,  George and whoever else was diving with them dropped in on
>> >DPV's with a float ball (I think they had a float ball) and we all dived
>> >at the same time even though the DPV's cruised on to the other reef
>> >lines. We all felt safe but how many people, had we encountered an
>> >accident, would find blame in the dive scenario with split groups in the
>> >water at the same time. It does leave food for thought does it not?
>> >
>> >I hope you guys do find the bodies for the families sake and also so we
>> >may all discover what common elements did lead up to the accident.
>> >
>> >You can determine the cause of accidents sometimes but not always. But
>> >you can always identify common elements that contribute towards the
>> >accident. When looking at common elements you need to keep and open mind
>> >and evaluate each piece of "evidence" on its own merit void of your
>> >emotions.  You then put this together as a fact finding puzzle when you
>> >identify a fact you draw conclusions on that fact and start trying to
>> >discover other facts. When you have identified as many facts as you can
>> >then you start the process of accident analysis. This is a key step in
>> >not only discovering the why of the event but also how to prevent it in
>> >the future. Usually investagators prefer to complete an investigation
>> >before stating little peices of the puzzel.
>> >
>> >Dan I thought you were a journalist if so this would be SOP.
>>
>> I'm trying to get to the root of the problem, but the coverup created by
>> Divers Supply, complicated this a great deal.
>>
>> >
>> >You paint a dismal description of Andre, which I do not believe to be
>> >fact and do not think it will assist you in determining the facts in the
>> >accident.
>> >
>> >Some of the others commenting on this issue assumed he was a heavy
>> >drinker. yet all I have talked with have never seem him drink around a
>> >class. Many of us have never seen him drink at all even though we have
>> >been around him a lot.
>> >
>> >Some of You stated he smoked. Again I have never seen the man smoke nor
>> >has anybody on my staff. I have been with  trained with and dived with
>> >Andre a lot and have never seen him smoke nor take a drink,
>> >
>> >You state Andre was extremely overweight,  and I would agree that he was
>> >overweight by about twenty maybe even thrirty pounds. I did not know
>> >Elkins so have no idea if your description of him is accurate or not.
>> >However Andre also worked out including two miles of fast fin swimming 4
>> >times a week.  So I think he was most likely in reasonable physical
>> >condition for swimming, with a rather good VO2 max. I have swum with him
>> >and I do not have the speed nor endurance at a combat pace that he has.
>> >Dan most people think I swim fairly fast and for a very long time with
>> >out getting tired. I assure you I'm in shape. I'm not fat as you tend to
>> >insinuate in your post.
>>
>> Tom, Andre HAD to be at least 100 pounds overweight, by the fitness
demands
>> of athletic performance, and deep diving..  He could NOT have weighed
much
>> over 175 or 180 if he had been really fit, at an 8 to 10 pecent bodyfat
>> level..
>
>Dan the man is around 6 3, give me a break, i weigh 180 pounds would you
>like to match me on fitness and Im only 5' 9 and 1/2 used to be 5 11
>befors i stsarted getting old and shrunk.

Its not about me challenging you Tom. Its about minimal fitness standards.

>
>> Yet his weight was close to 100 pounds over this.Really, I doubt
>>
>> >I would be glad to submit to your fitnes test anytime just explain it to
>> >me and I"ll do it. Then why don't you come down and keep up with me in
>> >my workouts?
>>
>> This is a great idea. Let me talk to the top gym in south florida for
this.
>> I'll set up some VO2 max tests for you and several of your instructors,
>> hopefully including Bill Reneker --and I'll take the test, as will George
>> Irvine and Bill Mee and Rob Carmichael. What do you think the statistical
>> deviation  is going to be between our two groups????
>Ok, I will bring several of my instructors Joey Dituri, etc and we can
>compare anytime.

Cool. But Dituri is one of George's guys---you have to bring some of "your
guys"--you know, fat ones like Bill Reneker :)


>>
>> As to keeping up to you in your workouts, apparently you are not aware
I'm a
>> competitive cyclist, averaging 40 miles per day, and in pack rides with
>> other racers will do average paces of 30 mph for 35 miles.  Also in
martial
>> arts, as plyometrics for cycling, my upper body gets trained heavily in
>> aerobics as well, with weight workouts at the gym on top of this.  Most
>> divers can't keep up with me when I swim, even if they are on scooters.
>> Pick an area you'd like train with me in, and we'll set it up.
>> I consider all of this fitness work as central to being a tech diver.
I'd
>> like to think you do as well.
>>
>> Well you would beat me on the cycle as I only cyle about three times a
week for an hour then run 20 minutes or vice vesa (not jog run) and roller
blade an hour a couple of times a week. Plus lifet weights, do stairmaster
and teach Karate three nights a week. Of course i consider fitness as
essential for technical diving. As i already know on my broken down cycle I
cannot do 30 mph,  I will settle for sparring with you, that I know I can do
for a good fast five rounds, because i do it all the time.and have for the
last forty years or so except for a one year layoff on 1981. I've only been
a fifth dan since 1988. would not have went for the belt except my master
wanted me to be the first American master he had trained. This is what my
religion is philosophy , beliefs everything including code of honor and
respect for others living or dead something you seemed not to have developed
in your training.

Great Tom, . After the VO2 max tests, we can go 3 to 6 rounds, or whatever
you like. I enjoy sparring. This Gym, Barbenders Pro Bodyworks, has a
regulation ring, and I can have Terry Giles ref for us. Ever heard of Terry
? :)



>
>You know Dan JJ is one of our instructors, so is Errol, we have a
>tremoundous numebr of instructors who are fit and tough. Someone
>overweight is not unsafe nor nessariariluy out of shape. Also I would
>love to see your study on how football players cannot run and have low
>vo2 max.

A fat lineman has a low VO2 max. Period. Trust me, you don't want to argue
this.  A fat diver who does no aerobics training  will be relatively unsafe
at 200 feet and deeper.

Gee does this apply to boxers as well such as George Foreman,
>or most any of the big heavy weights who get in and battle out 10 to 15
>rounds.

Once you get used to ring fighting, you don't  have to expend all that much
energy in each round---unless the fighter you are faced with can find a way
to make you work. Big guys like Foreman are extremely gifted at efficient
motion that costs them little in aerobic energy expenditure.


You state you are also in martial arts how many rounds have you
>ever fought?

Several years of full contact kick boxing.
>
>Tom
>
>Look froward to sparring with you, should be easy for a young perfect
>specimen like you to take on a broken down old man like me.

I look forward to it too. :)
Regards,
Dan


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