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Roger,
I anyone is going to have a tough time proving beyond the shadow of a
doubt that the deaths ARE caused by "deep air". Kevin brings up a good
point. "Deep Air" is being misunderstood in my opinion as being a dive
on 21/79% to a depth of xxx. What's the difference doing a 21/79%dive
to a depth to 250fsw and doing a tri-mix dive to a depth with an
equivalent air depth of 250fsw?? If you're going to get narc'd, you're
going to get narc'd.
The problem with proving it beyond the shadow of a doubt is that the
person is dead so we'll never really know. In reality, in our ego crazy
sport, if someone did live to tell about it, it's possible they would
blame it on something else either to save face or embarrassment. When
someone on "air" dies at 250fsw on a wreck and is tangled in fishing
line the defense says, "he got tangled, he didn't die of deep air". It
may be true that they died because they got tangled and couldn't get
out. If they were narc'd and couldn't function to get themselves
untangled or avoid the situation all together then isn't the real reason
they got in trouble the narcosis and not the fishing line? Kind of like
drunk driving. "It wasn't because I was drunk officer, I was driving
straight on my side of the road. That car just happened to pull out in
front of me!!" Where is the blame placed in this situation?? Naturally
the drunk driving!!
I think the issue with TDI is that they push the stuff by saying it's
OK. I don't know about your state but when there is an accident because
of drunk driving they can go after the bar tender if they didn't cut the
person off in time. Kind of the same thing.
Safe diving,
Art.
art.paltz@r2*.co*
Last Dive 1/10/98, Klondike Rocks (lobster dive),
NJ 75ft/65 min bottom time, 43 degrees F, 40% bottom mix.
-----Original Message-----
From: roger steele [SMTP:rogersteele@ho*.co*]
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 1998 11:02 AM
To: kevin@nw*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: Re: Deeptech
Kevin, thanks for your kind response. It is very difficult to
determine
exactly what happened in this case, especially since it was a
record
attempt that no one (to my knowledge, except Bowden, of
course)had ever
attempted before. From accounts that I have read his body was
tangled
up in line below 900 ft. Due to these extreme depths, we can
probably
assume that HPNS, narcosis, CO2, etc. . . all had a part to
play in
this tragedy. It would be hard to prove that narcosis alone,
was the
cause of his death. However, it is not my intention at this
time to
support, or debunk, deep air diving. That is a seperate issue
from the
one that I have put forward. My question concerns several
comments on
this list about TDI unsafe diving instruction in general. This
is a
very serious claim that some people are making. It is my
intention to
discover the facts that back up these claims. To my knowledge,
no one
has been able to do that as of yet, which leads me to believe
that these
comments are unsubstantiated by relevant facts and therefore
should be
ignored until these facts can be presented in a coherent manner.
As I
have said before, if this can be done, we all need to take a
serious
look at TDI.
>From kevin@nw*.co* Thu Jan 22 07:37:25 1998
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>Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 07:37:15 -0800
>To: "roger steele" <rogersteele@ho*.co*>
>From: Kevin Connell <kevin@nw*.co*>
>Subject: Re: Deeptech
>In-Reply-To: <19980122140135.978.qmail@ho*.co*>
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Scheck used a 400ft END, and traveled on air - the narc stays
with you
for
>about 5 mins.
>
>At 08:01 AM 1/22/98 CST, you wrote:
>>Forgive me for not understanding your post. Your lucid
argumentation
is
>>sometimes overwhelming. However, my question remains
unanswered by
you.
>>TDI was founded in 1994. The dead list is irrelevant to TDI's
>>responsibility towards those deaths. 95% of the ones you have
mentioned
>>happened well before 1994. (Several of the names that are
last on the
>>list do not have dates listed. Also, one of the names on the
list,
>>Sheck Exley, did not die on deep air, he died using mixed gas,
as a am
>>sure most of the people on this e-mail list are well aware.
Therefore,
>>you should strike his name off the list. This raises another
issue
>>concerning the reliability of your list. Please provide me
with the
>>details of these deaths ie. . . What were the circumstances
of each
>>accident, were all of them in fact diving air?) You would be
hard
>>pressed to convince anyone that TDI's unsafe dive instruction
is
>>responsible for deaths happening in the 1960's. If you think
this is
>>indeed the case, please present your logical arguments so that
I also
>>can be convinced. Remember, my question is show me the
statistical
>>correlation between scuba diving deaths and TDI certification.
In
your
>>comments I see nothing that is relevant to this question. Let
me be as
>>clear as possible, in the list that you have provided me, how
many are
>>TDI certified? Of the ones that are certified, (if there are
any) how
>>many of these deaths can you directly attribute to TDI's
unsafe diving
>>instuction? Please respond with factual statistics.
>>
>>>From cobber@ma*.ci*.co* Wed Jan 21 18:20:32 1998
>>>Received: from 206.246.204.142 by cisatlantic.com
>>> with SMTP (QuickMail Pro Server for MacOS 1.0.2); 21 JAN
98
>>21:20:17 UT
>>>Subject: Re: Deeptech
>>>Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 21:20:45 -0500
>>>x-sender: cobber@ma*.ci*.co*
>>>x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997
>>>From: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>
>>>To: "roger steele" <rogersteele@ho*.co*>,
>>> "Tech Diver" <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>>>Mime-Version: 1.0
>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>>>
>>>On 1/21/98 4:28 PM roger steele wrote:
>>>
>>>>I have checked the "Dead list" from the aquanaut archive to
the best
>>of
>>>>my ability.
>>>
>>>You did not understand my post did you, or you don't care to
>>understand.
>>>Let me try again:
>>>
>>>Deepair deaths:
>>>
>>>We have two corrections to the deep air death list: depth on
the Sea
>>>Mount air killing, and depth on Doug missavage:
>>>
>>>Heywood Day, 140', 1962
>>>Ron Hughes, 150', 1963
>>>Paul Giancontere, 200', 1965
>>>Brend Joost, 160', 1968
>>>Stephen Alexander, 210', 1969
>>>Pat McIntree, 150', 1969
>>>Brett Naisbet, 150', 1969
>>>Wayne Dillon, 210', 1969
>>>Francis Wilson, 160', 1969
>>>Paul Bartlett, 140', 1970
>>>Robert Causey, 180', 1970
>>>Bud Sims, 300', 1970
>>>Fred Schmidt, 150', 1970
>>>John Cruselle, 180', 1971
>>>Frank Martz, 300', 1971
>>>Robert Vaughn, 200', 1971
>>>Doug Deurloo, 150', 1971
>>>Ray Elman, 260', 1972
>>>Alex Nesbitt, 200', 1972
>>>Thomas Cranmer, 200', 1972
>>>Paul Dietrich, 240', 1972
>>>Dan Cole, 220', 1972
>>>Rich Broman, 140', 1972
>>>Stephen Millott, 250', 1973
>>>Christine Millott, 250', 1973
>>>John Bockerman, 250', 1973
>>>Gordon Roberts, 250', 1973
>>>William Smith, 200', 1973
>>>Melvan Tillman, 150', 1973
>>>James Waddington, 140', 1973
>>>Robert Wyatt, 210', 1973
>>>Deane Valentine, 190', 1973
>>>George Van de Nord, 190', 1973
>>>Paul Reinholm, 170', 1974
>>>Unidentified, 200', 1974
>>>Dana Turner, 290', 1974
>>>Charles Barone, 180', 1975
>>>Daniel Howard, 180', 1975
>>>Steve Herman, 180', 1975
>>>Mike Goddard, 170', 1976
>>>Arthur Williamson, 140', 1976
>>>Sven Sorenson, 140', 1976
>>>William Wood, 180', 1978
>>>Carl Miles, 180', 1978
>>>Terry Collins, 260', 1981
>>>James Bentz, 260', 1981
>>>Bill McFadden, 200', 1988
>>>William Cronin, 140', 1988
>>>Kenny Potts, 200', 1990
>>>Lloyd Morrison, 250', 1990
>>>Billy Liiard, 180', 1991
>>>Ormsby, John 230' 1985
>>>Feldman, Steve 235' 1991
>>>Soellner, Ed 145' 1992
>>>Rouse, Jr, Chris 235' 1992
>>>Rouse, Sr Chris 235' 1992
>>>Santulli, Robert 220 1992
>>>Sheck Exley 400 aed
>>>Nick Commoglio 450
>>>Rob Palmer ?
>>>Rob Parker 250
>>>Ed Suarez 280
>>>Carl Sutton 280
>>>Legare Hole 240
>>>Andy Bader 220
>>>Aron Arvidson 311*******correction
>>>Dennis Sirvet 110 meters
>>>DOUGLAS MISSAVAGE 191 ******correction
>>>
>>>Deep air is TDI policy. Do you need to take a logic class to
make the
>>>connection?
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Learn About Trimix At
http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/trimix.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>--------------------------------------------------
>Kevin Connell <kevin@nw*.co*>
>
>Northwest Labor Systems
>http://www.nwls.com
>Bellingham, WA
>
>--------------------------------------------------
>
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