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Andy Schmidt wrote: > mostly from less-seasoned hot-heads who somehow see a > proportional relationship between the amount of messages produced and their > self-esteem. Andy Schmidt also wrote: >Instead of waiting for all facts to come in, cases are > speculated upon, victims are labeled, techniques and skills are criticized - > sometimes before the next-of-kin can even be notified, and certainly before > all the witnesses and participants have detailed their knowledge in the > official accident report. Hey Andy, I was reading your little epistle here and I almost fell out of my seat when I read the above obnoxious commentary. Your mention of "less-seasoned hot-heads" implies the existence of "well-seasoned cool-heads". I would appreciate it if you would enlighten us all with your list of these dive industry luminaries. Your second little uniformed remark harkens back to the well publicized and well documented accidents involving Palmer and Parker. Would you care to name someone who committed the supposed transgression you have just described? In the case of Palmer there was an active cover up of the facts by the participants following an intial leak of the truth by Chris Parrot. Eventually other participants and friends stepped forward with the shocking truth about what really was going on. The tructh turned out to be far worse than the speculation. In the Parker case we got all of the facts directly from several people associated with the participants. Both of these fataliites occurred outside of the US and what appeared in the "official" report was probably suspect. In the case of several recent domestic fatalities we know for a fact that the paritipants perjured themselves to the invetigating authorities on many of the details to cover up their own stupidity, complicity and incompetence. Whe someone gets killed, where almost all of the obvious facts suggest unadulterated stupidity, we do not need the final report from the medical examiner before discussing the cricumstances surrounding the death. This is especially true when the taint of "deep air" is associated with the incident. Have you forgotten the list of 50 or more fatalities which was published on this forum? Instead of pointing your little finger at the real problem (deep air, personal preference stupidity, distortion of the facts, cover ups, lies etc.) you chose instead to make suggestive innuendos about the voice of truth. I am waiting for your reply to the above. Andy Schmidt wrote: > > Joel: > > yes, NSS/CDS and NACD maintain accident analysis files. For years, John Crea > has kept those files and recently Jeff Bozniak (sorry, I'm not sure of the > accurate spelling - but you know who I mean) has expressed interest to > assist with the record keeping. > > I agree with your sentiment. Accident analysis was the core for cave diving > training and procedures. At those times, there was a "cave diving community" > that (in most regards) acted responsibly as a group, when dealing with > accidents. Facts and statements were collected, analyzed and then > published - for everyone's benefit. It was considered bad form to speculate > about a case (I avoid the word "discuss" in this context, since > "discussions" imply a certain relevance) - before the official report became > available. > > Nowaday's, accident analysis is suffering from a lack of discipline and > mutual respect - mostly from less-seasoned hot-heads who somehow see a > proportional relationship between the amount of messages produced and their > self-esteem. Instead of waiting for all facts to come in, cases are > speculated upon, victims are labeled, techniques and skills are criticized - > sometimes before the next-of-kin can even be notified, and certainly before > all the witnesses and participants have detailed their knowledge in the > official accident report. Since facts are not yet present or are ignored - > the result of these speculations can (by definition) not be "constructive". > > Today, fewer people probably bother with the efforts involved with gathering > witnesses at an emotional time, moderating a potentially highly charged > group, and then writing up and submitting an official report. After all, the > vocal audience seems to have little regard for the facts, but rather prefer > to read the "National Enquirer" version. > > If you are seeking for ways to learn from past incidents based on fact, > don't fall for the "online chatter" and "opinions" on lists like this - go > back to the source for the real story. If you deal with people with > professional respect (even if they were involved with an incident) you are > more likely to get access to what you need to know. > > Best Regards, > Andy > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joel Markwell [mailto:joeldm@mi*.co*] > Sent: Monday, January 12, 1998 6:50 AM > To: gmirvine@sa*.ne* > Cc: Cavers; Techdiver; HoustonCaveDivers > Subject: Re: Blue Holes Fatalities List > > You said: > > >I agree with you on the analysis , and I would like to go back and look > >at cave diving accidents and look at the AED. There just can not be that > >many dopes - it has to be that depth and confusion with a mild narcosis > >did the trick ( the real deep ones like Parker are obvious). > > George, > > Actually, this started out as an attempt to help a reporter with her > rather narrow focus of cave diving deaths in the Bahamas. But you are > right, such information would be invaluable. When I first started cave > diving in 1990 one of the first books I read was Exley's BLUEPRINT FOR > SURVIVAL. Accident Analysis was at the core of making cave diving safer. > It was the structure on which modern safe cave diving hung. And for 8 > long years we went without a fatality! What sport could boast such a > safety record? Hell, GOLF was probably statistically more dangerous > during those years! > > I have been saying for some time, however, that Accident Analysis seems > to have gone by the wayside. The focus seems to be elsewhere. Could it be > that with so many people trying to make a living off of cave diving that > talking about fatalities is considered to be bad for business? Certainly > none of the certifying agencies are doing any kind of annual report on > cave diving accidents. The NSS does one, but it's woefully incomplete. > > In doing research for the Herald's reporter I came across a great many > statistics and of those, I found that skydiving organizations apparently > keep and publish their fatality reports and do analysis on them. I found > the same in many areas, motorcycling, climbing, you name it, you can find > fatality info/lists on the web. BUT NOT CAVE DIVING! A sport whose basic > tenets of safety were created out of analyzing cave diving accidents and > fatalities has almost completely abandoned that practice. And why? > Certainly, it's still relevant, hell, the original "blueprint" published > by Exley has as number three: "Avoid Deep Diving in Caves." And what > seems to be the biggest killer in cave diving today? Going deep on air. > > I am looking into this, I think it's way overdue. Although I'm not sure > of the most successful approach. I have contacted the CDS keeper of the > Accident files and I will do the same with the NACD. I'll order the DAN > yearly report of dive accidents which just came out for 1997. Apart from > that I think that searching the techdiver and cavers archives will yield > some reports and perhaps there should be a call for reports on the > internet. I can certainly do that on Compuserve, but I don't have an AOL > account. > > I spoke with the CDS webmaster, Robert Laird about this and he indicated > that, while the CDS has a place to report accidents, they rarely get > reports on that page. If the NACD and the NSS-CDS are acquiring and > maintaining such files, it certainly isn't well-known! There really does > need to be a clearing house, going forward, that divers worldwide know is > THE place to report tech diving accidents. Then those reports could be > disbursed to the certifying agencies. > > >Joel, let me know if you would like some collaboration on your effort > >here - we might really get some eye openers . > > Thanks, your assistance would be invaluable. If you have further info on > your "deep air" list, that would be great. And any suggestions you have, > I'd appreciate. > > Later, > > JoeL > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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