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Bill, The issue isn't weather or not that tenders are acceptable( I also dive SAR and commercial) but is there not a better way?? I think that if you are tethered that it takes away from the "recreational" part of the dive(depending on your definition of recreational) I definately agree that non "tech" divers should be teathered for ice dives. But maybe the prerequisites for ice diving should be raised so that one can handle gas management, valve shutdowns, and reels before learning to ice dive. it seems to me that self sufficiency is a must for any overhead environment and I personaly feel that i should be able to handle any emergency that comes my way rather than just tugging on the rope ane getting yanked out. There are certain basic skills that are necessary for all overhead environments and if you need to dive teathered then maybe the basic skill should be perfected a little more. As far as removing the ice from the hole that seems very labour intensive. the way we do it is to cut the hole and put an ice screw in one corner. the corner that is the last to go under and a runner attatched to it( most of the people i ice dive with also ice climb with me and much of the ice gear is interchangable) The ice is then pushed under and the runner is then secured to another ice screw on the surface of the ice. A hole is drilled through the ice and pardway into the block puched under and then a metal pole is insetred into the hole and hammered in effectively immobalizing the ice block. Then to replace it the pole is removed and you can pull it into place with the runner and then remove the last screw. simple safe and effective. safe diving STEVE >Steve, > >I've done a fair amount of ice diving and belife that the use of tehers is >a perficly acceptable practice PROVIDING you have a compatent tender. For >divers who are NOT tech I would NEVER concider doing an ice dive any other >way! The protocall that Nanci spelled out is great. The only change is >that I would put the harness UNDER a bcd if the is what the diver is using. > >I also agree with removing the ice from the hole! It is much easer that >most people think to remove the ice. If you cut the ice into three pieces >(across the triangel half way down from one corner then cut it in half >again between the two remaining corners) it comes out easely. There is >also no way it can posably cause you a problem on top of the ice! > >IF!!! you have proper gear AND!!! you are expereanced using a line reel you >can dive with out the tether. However, WHEN you do experance a reg falure >you better know how to handel it!!! Also I would not dive with more than >three divers in the water at a time. If you have more divers than that in >the hole and you have multiple falures.... Well you decide how many divers >can be in the hole at a time. I find three divers in the hole to be more >than enough, thank-you. > >With eather method I would not go in without "surface support". Even if >the surface suport is a nondiver just to keep people from trying to cover >the hole or go fishing in that "wonderfull hole someone cut". If you get >cought under the ice with some one trying to put up an ice shanty over your >exit it could impact the amount of fun you have that day. > >Just food for thought!!! Have fun > > > >At 09:07 PM 1/9/98 PST, you wrote: >>Anthony, >> >>Many good points, although i am aware of the origins of the rason for >>teathering, i feel that with proper gear and technique that much of this >>becomes unnesesary. >> >>with regards to the points... >>diving without gloves is something i consider a luxury, most of mu >>diving is done in cold water in a drysuit and just because the >>temperature is colder that is no excuse for not being able to maunpulate >>valves(practice practice practice) with regards to running reels a >>larger knob installed on the reel works wonders for the ice >>season(although jams really suck) >> with regards to freeflows generally usinf regs with environmental kist >>solves most of the free flow problems. I have found us divers arctic >>regs great during the ice season i have never had a freeflow when the >>air temperature was above -30 degrees CELCIUS athough i generally don't >>use them for other dives they have always worked great for the winter >>season. >> >>As for the AAAGGGGHHHH we started using AGAS (I KNOW WERE WIMPS) but it >>keeps the face much warmer and allows for com units if desired(although >>to be redundant a spare mask must be worn (have never had a free flow >>with the AGA EVER) In this case we use our long hoses as the spare >>rather that breathing off them on the left post as we do usually. >>>A few points that apply even to those of us with doubles and two regs >>and >>>caving skills and equipment are that: >>> >>> (a) wearing heavy three-finger gloves makes you clumsier, so it's >>> harder to handle a reel and lightweight line, or to turn valves >>[note >>> that Florida cave protocols assume no gloves] >>> >>> (b) if one reg freeflows under such cold conditions the other may not >>> be far behind >>> >>> (c) during the first five minutes of the dive, when your face hasn't >>> gone numb yet and you're going AAAAUUUUGHHHH, it's nice to not have >>> to think about possibly having to do any survival skills more >>complex >>> than pulling on a rope three times. >> >>I think you may be right about finding something inbetween but i also >>feel that the same principals can be used that are used in other >>overhead environment diving(lots of cold water wreck diving is done and >>i have never heard of anyone being teatherd) >> >>SAFE DIVING >> >>STEVE >>>Steve Schinke <tekdive@ho*.co*> writes: >>>> This person was in support of some of the large diving factions >>>> standards involving a five person team requiring the divers to be >>>> teathered and a teathered safety diver plus two line tenders. >>> >>>That style would be drawn from commercial diving protocols; that would >>>likely have been the readiest source when NAUI and friends were >>figuring >>>out how to ice dive and live. >>> >>>> my argument was that this seemed to be a little over excessive. I >>>> argued that Ice should be dove like any other overhead environment >>>> using reels, and gas management principles, and that teathering >>>> unnesessary. The divers should be competant enough with there skills >>>> that being roped together and to the surface is ridiculous. >>> >>>A lot of recreational divers only have a single (they look up at the >>>high-tech guys with pony bottles, if you can believe that) so the whole >>>idea of shutting off a valve when a reg freeflows is foreign to them. >>>They need to get back out before it can drain their tank, and having a >>>rope and a surface tender makes that possible. The recreational ice >>>diving protocol is deliberately as simple and foolproof as possible. >>> >>>> usually the way my buddy and i dive is with reels and ice screws in a >>>> two man team using thirds. >>> >>>A few points that apply even to those of us with doubles and two regs >>and >>>caving skills and equipment are that: >>> >>> (a) wearing heavy three-finger gloves makes you clumsier, so it's >>> harder to handle a reel and lightweight line, or to turn valves >>[note >>> that Florida cave protocols assume no gloves] >>> >>> (b) if one reg freeflows under such cold conditions the other may not >>> be far behind >>> >>> (c) during the first five minutes of the dive, when your face hasn't >>> gone numb yet and you're going AAAAUUUUGHHHH, it's nice to not have >>> to think about possibly having to do any survival skills more >>complex >>> than pulling on a rope three times. >>> >>>Because of those factors I don't think you can directly transfer cave >>>skills as if you were in Florida. I think the best technical-icedive >>>configuration lies somewhere between there and the full five-diver >>>tethered setup. I don't claim to have all the answers, and I'm keeping >>>an open mind. >>> >>>My best ice dive last season was after my buddy had to scrub due to a >>>predive freeflow; I was down solo, tethered. This I think comes a bit >>>closer to the original tethered commercial diver model, without a >>>second diver in the water to get ropes crossed. It worked really well, >>>and this can be done with two divers and a tender. >>> >>>With two divers each independently tethered to anchor points on the >>>surface, I can't see the real benefit of the safety diver, unless >>perhaps >>>less-experienced divers are going in the water and you want to be able >>to >>>put in somebody competent to help them. Still, I'm not going to change >>>the rules I was taught on my ice course until I'm certain I and my >>buddies >>>have a better system and we've gone through the contingencies and we're >>>sure it'll work. >>> >>>Note that it's generally only possible to get one dive per regulator; >>>postdive on a below-freezing day, a wet regulator will freeze up and >>>freeflow on any attempt at a second dive. If one diver is going in >>first >>>and then sitting safety for the other(s), having a dry spare regulator >>>would be useful. I'd never previously had that luxury, but having >>stage >>>bottles in summer means having extra regs in winter. The backup >>>regulator (left-post, if Hogarthian) should be okay, having a chance to >>>rise to the temperature of the water before being needed. >>> >>>Because of ice-up and freeflow issues (note also the LP inflator >>freeflow >>>discussion today) and the extreme cold, it probably goes without saying >>>that one stays in the no-decompression zone under the ice. >>> >>>Make sure your tether ropes are long enough; 50' ropes in 30' of water >>>when people miscalculate the wreck site by 40' adds up to the classic >>>3-4-5 triangle and means you can just barely reach out and touch the >>>nearest part. >>> >>>-- >>>Anthony DeBoer <adb@on*.ca*> >>> >> >> >> >>______________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >>-- >>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >> >> >Bill (aquadart) Bott > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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