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At 08:19 PM 1/9/98 PST, Steve Schinke wrote: >Nancy, (Nanci) >This is similar to the PADI way that i learned to ICE dive. I was trained NAUI, BTW, by an excellent, excellent instructor, Bill King. We learned >with a buddy team on one line with a buddy line between them. and a >safety diver and two tenders. But i fail to see the need for so many >people. FIVE people seems excessive. Why the safety diver? Well, like I said, we dive with three people, or more if there are more. You need a tender for each line, and one safety diver. I really don't have an opinion on one or more divers per line, I guess I like to (ice) dive by myself, and I can always go find the other diver if I want to. I know some people like that way better, though. We have the safety diver ready to go in if the diver needs assistance for any reason. I don't know of an actual occasion where the safety diver has had to go in, locally, anyway. The reason I _learned_ we had a safety diver was in case the diver got off the line somehow, but I really don't know how that would happen, unless maybe the carabiner didn't get locked, and came open. But since we hold the line in our hands while diving, for communication, it seems very unlikely that you could actually _lose_ the line. I was also trained that if the tender "ok'd" the diver, and didn't get a response twice in succession, that the safety diver should be sent in. There are other possibilities that we haven't had to deal with, that are conceivable, though maybe not probable, such as entanglement. When i >cave dive i don't have some guy at the surface waiting to jump in and >save me and my team if something goes wrong. Right. But while ice diving using the "tendered" method, your buddy is on the surface; he's the tender. Cave diving, your buddy is with you, unless you're diving solo. So ice diving, if you require assistance from another diver, it's the safety diver who would come to help you. The way _we_ do it. I think you have two differences of opinion on ways to do things here. One, is using a reel instead of a "live" line with a tender a safe alternative? Two, is it necessary to have a person out of the water, at the entrance point, when you are under the ice? And i feel that teathers >provide a huge entanglement danger. Diving on a reel seems to make more >sence. The reasons for a teather would be current. ICE diving should >never be done in current situations(in my opinion) My SAR team will >never do any ice diving/rescues under ice in moving water. Generally >the visibility is much better under the ice as oppesed to warmer temps >especially on a brite day. Now I am not disagreeing with you as i >learned to dive the same way but i feel that the methode could >definately be improved. I don't know how. There is never any slack in the line. You don't have to deal with anchoring it at various points and retracing your path like you would with a reel. You don't even have to deal with laying line. My hands, in three finger mitts, are just barely warm enough. I really wouldn't want to worry about the intricasies of reels with so little dexterity. But if it works for you, then I guess that's ok. I can see the reason for surface personal to a >degree. Keeping the hole free of ice. I don't know how lonf you ice >dive for. I think that my longers BT is around one hour and the ice >that may form in the hole is minimal maybe 2mm. I can maybe agree with >keeping snow mobilers and fishermen away. > >Question. Do you cut the ice and remove it from the hole or push ith >under the ice. we push it under the ice and anchor it at two points so >that it can be replaced after the dive to prevent accidental drownings >after the divers have left the scene. We cut a big triangle, then divide that into three or four pieces. We take it out of the hole, though, I guess because it gets it out of the way of the lines, and because if you lose a block under the ice, someone has to get kitted back up to go find it. Never heard of anchoring them. Surface personel: They're good for bringing hot water if you have something freeze, either equipment or body parts. They are good for taking things you find out of your hands, or hauling up a line you've attached something to. They're good for helping you with finishing touches, getting ready, and for getting you out of the hole and out of your gear when you're nice and cold after your dive! (We're not talking super-technical diving here, just your basic scrounging in the mud for 30-60 minutes, looking for things, mostly, so it's not like we need _serious_ surface support, just practical support.) Plus it's just kind of a labor-intensive thing, cutting through three feet of ice, shoveling, setting up a shelter, getting all the lines anchored, then taking it all down later. It's nice to have lots of help! >thanks for the input. I'll be interested to hear about how other people are ice diving. Today, here, it's about fifteen below, and a couple of local shops are taking their students out for their first dives. They usually start out about 50-50 wet vs dry, until they decide if they _really_ like it or not. I _almost_ wish I didn't have to sleep today just so I could go spectate! TTYL, Nanci > >STEVE > >>Steve, >> >>You'll find different factions of ice divers right in a small area. >The >>people I ice dive with (Minneapolis/St. Paul, where our ice diving >season >>is about 4 months long) use this method: >> >>One tender per diver. Two divers for each triangular hole. One safety >>diver who is suited up, with gear next to the hole, ready to go. The >>safety line is 50 feet longer than the diver's line. The safety line >is >>laid out on the ice, untangled, ready to go. All lines attached with >ice >>screws. Divers' lines marked in 25-foot increments. Divers not >wearing >>harness/backplates use a harness over their BCDs to attach the line to. >We >>use locking carabiners to attach lines to ice screws and divers. We >remove >>the ice blocks while diving, and replace them when done, and mark the >site >>with flagging tape so snowmobilers/ice fishermen don't fall in before >it >>refreezes. So we need a minimum of three people to dive. Whether we >use >>lights or not depends on the weather, vis, depth, etc. It's pretty >common >>to limit beginning divers both in time and penetration. >> >>Other groups of ice divers in my area will dive with a pair of divers >on a >>single line, with one tender. No one I've ever seen here has dived >without >>a tender, using a reel. >> >>Not necessarily the "correct" way, but it works for us. >> >>Nanci >> >> >> >>At 11:45 AM 1/9/98 PST, Steve Schinke wrote: >>>i recently had a debate about the correct way to ice dive and i >thought >>>i would see what this lists reaction was. We live in northwestern >>>canada and have ice coverd lakes for about eight months of the year so >>>unless one has alot of travel dollars you have to leard to ice dive to >>>get wet. >>> >>>This person was in support of some of the large diving factions >>>standards involving a five person team requiring the divers to be >>>teathered and a teathered safety diver plus two line tenders. >>> >>>my argument was that this seemed to be a little over excessive. I >>>argued that Ice should be dove like any other overhead environment >>>using reels, and gas management principles, and that teathering >>>unnesessary. The divers should be competant enough with there skills >>>that being roped together and to the surface is ridiculous.(perhaps >>>eight dives doesn't classify you as a competent advanced diver.....) >>> >>>usually the way my buddy and i dive is with reels and ice screws in a >>>two man team using thirds. We also carry min of two lights although >it >>>is usually unnesesary to use them. the only drawback is thaqt cutting >>>the hole takes more effort. I was wondering how other people dove ice >>>as our tech community is rather isolated and small up here. >>> >>>STEVE SCHINKE >> >> >> > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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