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> I had numerous "technical divers" > laugh the first time I had students on mix at 160. What is interesting > is that several of those who at the time laughed now do mix dives at the > 160 to 200 foot range. > Amazingly how many of us first started using mix only on ultra(to > > me ultra is beyond 200 feet)deep dives and now use it on other deep > > dives. Tom: I remember thinking it was crazy to waste the He on such "shallow" dives. Its amazing how time and varied experiences change our viewpoints. Joe Tom Mount wrote: > > Bill > .You must remember that until quite recently trimix was regarded as for > dives beyond 200 feet and 200 was looked at as a air limit. Indeed the > AAUS, and NOAA use 190 as a air depth.I had numerous "technical divers" > laugh the first time I had students on mix at 160. What is interesting > is that several of those who at the time laughed now do mix dives at the > 160 to 200 foot range. > > When we first started we had air to 220, then when Bret Gilliam formed > TDI we cut the depth to 190 since then we dropped the technical deep air > program and this year introduced intermediate trimix. Yes we still offer > deep air to 160 in advanced deep air and technical eanx can be taught to > depths between 120 and 180, At this time there are no immediate plans to > eliminate these programs as they do benefit some people and in addition > they convince most that going to mix is a wise decision for deeper > dives. Amazingly how many of us first started using mix only on ultra(to > me ultra is beyond 200 feet)deep dives and now use it on other deep > dives. > > Tom Mount > > The intermediate trimix course includes all the skills that are in > advanced deep air, and technical EANx plus its own additional skills but > has no air or EANx dives deeper than 130 feet. The courses water work > consist of a three hour confined water session,followed by 5 air or EANx > dives to to a max of 130 doing skills ascent/deco management etc. It > then has 4 trimix dives using 20% and above o2 (po2 limit of 1.4) and > helium content between 15 to 35% depending on depth. The maximum > allowable END is 120 feet > > Tom Mount > BILL ALLEN wrote: > > > > Tom there must be a lot of people who keep you in the dark. I am at present taking tech eanx thorough your organization. I'm taking based primarily to get tri mix. In the course of conversations with a "guest speaker" at the course, a person who is held in high regard at iantd. I was told flat out you don't need tri mix for less than 200 feet it was a waste. This is in one of "your" courses. I decided that it was just his very wrong opinion, although we did take a very heated exception to it. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tom Mount [SMTP:TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*] > > Sent: Monday, December 15, 1997 3:44 PM > > To: wwm@sa*.ne* > > Cc: cavers@ge*.co* > > Subject: Re: UK Controversy - -was Re: Liars and Con Men > > > > Bill > > > > On the one item you are correct, IANTD certainly endorses clean safe > > configurations. > > > > I certainly do not censor people nor care to. > > > > Gurr did not side with Gilliam, I doubt Gurr even realized Gilliam was > > or was not involved in writting a letter. > > > > I think Gurr signed a letter that was being circulated at the Birmingham > > show but was not the author of the letter that is in question > > > > I do not think that signing the letter has anything to do with > > disagreement on the subject of configuration but rather a personal > > protest of the way George expressed himself in regard to Rob and Rob. > > > > Kevin feels strongly against ultra deep air diving just as you do and > > George does so it is not a protest in support of deep air, it simply has > > (in my opnion) the method in which George had communicated in regard to > > Rob and Rob's death and was a feeling many UK divers orginally > > expressed. > > > > I think you will discover there is nothing targeting WKPP in anything > > Gurr has done. To most of us the fact that George is a director of WKPP > > does not automatically make a statement by George or a statement towards > > George a reflection on WKPP > > > > It is Gurr's decision to or not to aplogize for his actions, it all > > comes down to if he feels signing the letter along with others is > > something he feels was right or wrong for his own reasons. > > > > Maybe it would be helpful if you talked directly to Kevin on this issue > > instead of through numerous third parties including myself who do not > > know his full position in regard to George and the UK, I do not prpose > > to be Kevins spokesman in fact I beleive that when you have a question > > or a problem it is best resolved by going to the source. thus why don't > > you contact Kevin and find out all the facts. > > > > Tom Mount > > > > PS I feel equally as upset by all the BS that is being circulated > > against Kevin as you could ever possibly feel about the George incident. > > Bill Mee wrote: > > > > > > Tom, > > > > > > For the most part I wasn't paying much attention to this interchange > > > that has been going on between you and George since his return from the > > > BSAC meeting. I will say that I spent a lot time working to help him > > > prepare his presentation and I was not at all amused to learn that Kevin > > > Gurr, the IANTD representative in the UK, sent a letter of protest > > > ostensibly to block George's presentation. This is very strange because > > > the "Doing it Right" WKPP methodology (which was a major component of > > > Irvine's presentation) is fully consistent with IANTD's policies and > > > procedures. The excuse that Gurr was unhappy about George's position on > > > the "Rob and Rob" tragedies also does not wash because it was a well > > > known fact that Palmer did not enjoy a cordial relationship with Gurr > > > (to put it mildly). I don't think I need to remind you or anyone else > > > that Palmer was top management of TDI (your disreputable sister agency) > > > and was certainly responsible in part for the large following TDI now > > > enjoys in the UK at the expense of IANTD. > > > > > > I know that you personally would never do such a thing and would not > > > condone suppressing of anyone's opinions. On the contrary you have > > > always been very open minded and a staunch believer of freedom of > > > expressing different and unpopular opinions. Unlike Bret Gilliam, you > > > do not threaten and bluster or send fake emails to people's employers > > > and you will openly and publicly debate issues related to all types of > > > diving, even when these opinions are subject to shrill denouncement and > > > hyperbole. Also, unlike Bret Gilliam, you actually do "technical" dives > > > and cave dives. Given this as a background I find it inconceivable that > > > you would ever consider siding with Gilliam's forces. Yet, it was > > > Gilliam and his cohorts who proactively wrote letters and made a fuss > > > about George's presentation. Why would Gurr be taking the side of > > > Gilliam, a known and up front troublemaker? > > > > > > We are being forwarded the copies of the letters sent to the BSAC by > > > Gurr and Gilliam. I would certainly hope that Gurr did not write his > > > letter on IANTD letterhead because this would imply the official IANTD > > > position. > > > > > > Once again, I have to express my disappointment that the IANTD UK > > > representative would take such an unreasoned position against our > > > organization. Please do not tell me that his position was against > > > George Irvine because this is the standard smokescreen that our > > > detractors typically use when they don't like the ideological message > > > conveyed by the WKPP. I have no idea why Gurr decided to target the > > > WKPP and I will not be satisfied until there is a public apology > > > regarding these unacceptable tactics and position. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > >George > > > > > > >I have nothing to straighten out . Kevin has been an outstanding > > > >contributor to developing safer dive programs and has spent considerable > > > >time energy and effort working with HSE to get mix diving made legal in > > > >the UK. In that area he has contribute beyond what eithe you or I as US > > > >residents could ever hope to accomplish in the UK. > > > > > > >I do stand behind him and will continute to do so, I think you will find > > > >even a lot of the folks who really support you will also remain behind > > > >Kevin, some have already posted on here. > > > > > > Tom Mount > > > >girvine@bl*.ne* wrote: > > > > > > > > Tom, your decision to stick with amateurs may > > > > have been financially expedient a while back, > > > > but is an albatross around your neck now, especially > > > > when they spend their energies attacking pros like > > > > myself and the WKPP in your name. Do yourself a favor > > > > and straighten this big mouth out. He has no business > > > > interfering with me. > > > > I have been proven exactly correct in my original > > > > assessment of the Rob and Rob deaths, and made that > > > > very clear at BSAC, where maybe more people will not > > > > make the same mistake. > > > > The difference between me and Gurr (besides the obvious) > > > > is that I try to make a difference, and Gurr looks > > > > like a mook, again. Notice his befellows this time. > > > > I stick with what is right. and stand up for it. > > > > > > George > > > Nordstrom was not Cis Lunar LTD UK and the letter has nothing to do with > > > him or Cis Lunar USA > > > > > > I could care less who wrote the letter, Richard did not and has > > > confirmed that. > > > > > > As Stated Gurr has my total support and I'm quite happy with what he has > > > accomplushed in the UK and I enjoy diving with him a great deal. Gurr > > > also has been offered the repair facility status by Richard and you can > > > verify that with Nick Jewson, > > > > > > Tom Mount > > > > > > G. Irvine wrote: > > > > > > > > Tom, it is obvious now that Nordstrom wrote the letter. If you think he > > > > did not, then tell us who did. None of this is of concern to me, but > > > > since we are talking letters, if your boy Gurr can take the time to > > > > write them about me, then Nordstrom certainly can write them about him. > > > > Maybe this big mouth will think before using what little influence he > > > > has to try to prevent the best influence in technical diving, the WKPP, > > > > from being heard. > > > > > > > > You are again on the wrong side of an obvious situation. Ther is no > > > > justification for what Gurr and Gilliam did, and eveyone knows it - they > > > > have hung themselves again, only you are deparately trying to get the > > > > rope around your neck, too. > > > > > > > > I put a lot of time and money in thqat presenttaion, and if Gurr had had > > > > the balls to show up, he would have had the opportuinty to deal wtih me > > > > face to face, which none of your little big mouthed pals has the nerve > > > > to do. They are all behind the scenes jerks and I will continue to work > > > > them over until they have publicly admitted their mistake and written a > > > > letter of appology to whomever they sent this to. You have seen nothihng > > > > yet on this asshole Gurr, trust me. > > > > > > > > While you are defending the indefensible, I want to konw when you are > > > > going to deal with Bird for the teaching trimix while diving air? > > > > > > > > Defend that one. > > > > > > > > Tom Mount wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Robert > > > > > I'm still saying you are a liar. It was not this post that Chris put up > > > > > that I said did not exist it was your post that Richard Nordstrom had > > > > > supposendley made that Richard denies having made and I just reverified > > > > > this with him. i also just verified that he has offered as he had > > > > > already told me and I had already posted the maintance contracts etc to > > > > > Kevin. So it is Kevins decision and his pocket book that will decide if > > > > > he takes the position or not. > > > > > > > > > > I'm exceptionally happy with the job Kevin is doing and frankly he has > > > > > my 100% support and unless something dramatic takes place he will > > > > > continute to have that support. As far as TDI, that is a non issue to > > > > > me. I'm quite comfortable with IANTD's position in the UK and beleive we > > > > > in fact the stroggest technical organization there. Even thogh we do > > > > > maintain more stringent diver and instructor certification satanrds and > > > > > procedures. > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Part 1.2 Type: application/ms-tnef > > Encoding: Base64 -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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