You wasting your breath, Carl. This guy is a mendacious, closed-minded, 
typical liberal asshole. He will spout untruths, backstab you, and shit 
in your face to get what he wants.

So whats worse, gillette, foul language or lying and deceit? I think I 
know where you stand....

   Jim
On 8/21/97 2:16 AM Garry Gillette wrote:

>Well written Carl & not one bit of abuse. Love it.
>
>I cannot and will not disagree with anything you have written. It all makes 
>perfectly good sense as does the reasoning of the WKPP for doing what they 
>do.
>
>What I do disagree with is these guys saying there is no other way to do it, 
>for any reason, or any type of dive, and if you don't (or even don't agree) 
>then you are subjected to abuse and belittlement. There's more to diving 
>than 
>a couple of caves in Florida.
>
>Anyway thanks for your post. It was well reasoned, polite and also 
>informative.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Carl Heinzl 
>Sent:	Thursday, 21 August 1997 14:03
>To:	Garry Gillette
>Cc:	cavers@ge*.co*
>Subject:	Re: FINAL SAY
>
>Gary,
>
>I haven't followed the whole discussion, however, I think there has been
>quite a bit of misconception going on.  Let me attempt a reasoned
>approach to this whole situation.
>
>I dive Hogarthian but that doesn't mean that I dive the same gear
>configuration on every dive.  The Hogarthian system is a mindset, not
>one specific gear configuration.  There are plenty of dives on which a
>set of twin 104s would make the dive damn near impossible (I'm thinking
>of some of the more difficult rocky entries here in New England), but a
>single 80 is more than adequate for dives such as this.  Part of the
>problem occurs when people say "I've been doing this for umpteen years
>and never had a problem with it yet".  For dives that are fairly simple
>and straightforward (even taking into account Floridian cave diving),
>many different gear configurations will allow you to go in, do the dive
>and come back alive.  Does that mean that your dive is optimal or that
>you are working the least amount possible - of course not.  What the
>strict hogarthians have done (and we're obviously talking about the WKPP
>here) is to take the whole arena of diving and made it a group concern.
>For them, damn near identical gear configuration may someday mean the
>difference between someone living and dying.  A side benefit is that it
>also allows gear to be used more freely amoung members.  They (the WKPP)
>have issues that go well beyond what 99.9% or more of the cavers will
>ever deal with.  For example, multiple stage bottles while diving
>redundant scooters just isn't the type of diving you see at places like
>Ginnie.  You must give them credit for the fact that they have evolved
>their setup to the point that doing dives with amounts of gear like this
>is still doable with a high degree of safety and efficiency.  I think we
>can all agree that these are two areas in which we all should strive to
>excel.  Then, the fact remains that when you remove the redundant
>scooters and multiple stage bottles, their baseline gear configuration
>is the cleanest most streamlined around and as my parents always told
>me, you have to have a good foundation on which to build a strong house.
>
>Again, if you want to play around in the first 1000 or 2000' of cave
>near the mainline, even sloppy gear will most likely be fine for you
>but, you will enjoy your diving more when you copy the experts (and by
>"you" I mean you in the general sense, not specifically Gary).
>Attention to detail should be at least proportional to the types of
>diving you plan on doing and stricter attention never hurt anyone while
>the converse, well, we all know about that.
>
>Getting down to some of the details...  If we are talking specifically
>about Floridian cave diving, that is another story.  One of the most
>discussed issues as it related to cave diving is the long hose, whether
>to breathe it or the short hose.  The secondary issue related to the
>long hose is the storage of that hose, is it stuffed or bungeed, or is
>it wrapped (going under the light canister, up across the chest, behind
>the head and around into the reg that you breathe).
>
>By donating the regulator that you breathe you are guaranteeing that the
>reg that an out of air diver receives is in good working order.
>Furthermore the placement of the backup reg on the strap around the neck
>tends to keep that reg as far away from possible contaminents as
>possible.
>
>The whole issue of stuffing comes down to a few simple items.  
>
>First, there are some diver who breathe and stuff the long hose that
>configure their gear to a strict Hogarthian.  The issues regarding
>stuffing them amount to a few simple issues.  Stuffing a hose can cause
>problems when attempting to free the hose.  This would be disastrous if
>the problem occured in a restriction that allowed very little movement.
>
>Second, it is extremely difficult if not impossible in most situation to
>restuff a hose yourself which means that you must depend on your buddy
>(who has already been stressed by an out of air situation) to do so for
>you.  One line of discussion that came up a while ago in this
>circumstance woudl be to simply have the diver then wrap their hose
>(just like a strict hogarthian).  I must say, if it makes sense to do so
>in such a situation, it at least merits thought as to why you would NOT
>want to do so under all circumstances.  
>
>Third, wrapping a hose will never allow it to accidentally come undone
>(i.e. out of the bungee) and catch on something in the cave potentially
>causing damage to the long hose reg therefore requiring an immediate end
>to the dive.
>
>When viewed with the overall system in mind you will see that indeed,
>strict hogarthians have gear configurations that are extremely close yet
>there are still (extremely) minor differences.  It is noteworth to point
>out that discussion to improvements is open, just come up with what you
>consider to be a workable idea, try it out yourself, then let's discuss
>it.  Be prepared for it and don't let your ego get bruised.
>
>-Carl-
>
>
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