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I had sent email to the prinicples involved in this discussion as soon as the original "your word can be considered advise" message came out and I'm going to include the message at the end of this email. Feel free to read or discard as you see fit. I'm certainly less inflamed now than I was yesterday, but I included the whole message so nothing would be taking out of context. I haven't heard back from Dennis, but I'm sure he got the message (from all of us!). Standing back, taking a deep breath and having read all of the responses, almost all of which I agree with, except that I *strongly* disagree with one that says what you do affects me because of the big brother thing. With this attitude pretty soon big brother will tell me that I can't eat red meat, can't sit in the sun, can't drive a motorcycle, etc.etc.etc. ... but I'm rambling - back to the topic at hand . I do understand that people are on this group that are relatively new to diving, let alone new to technical diving. So, while I'm *definitely* not on the side of curtailing *any* discussion, please read the following two paragraphs... >So maybe it's time for a "don't try this at home, kids" bit in the >mailing list introduction, or perhaps a periodic message which could >emphasize that point and direct people to appropriate training. Beyond Tracey makes a good point. Perhaps it's time that we started to put together a FAQ for this list. It could contain relevant information like technical training agencies names & addresses, phone/fax numbers, etc, perhaps even a brief description of some of the certification levels for tech divers that these agencies have along with appropriate warnings & disclaimers that information present here is not in lue of proper training and classes/etc.etc.etc. Anyhow, have a *great* long weekend everyone!!! Even *with* the noise/etc, this is probably *the* best and most enjoyable email to read that I get and I look forward to it every day!!! -Carl- ********** parts of original email here **************** Comments I added later are prefaced with XXX ***Flame on*** >in my opinion both you guys are very irresponsible to even bring >this sort of line up... i'm sure you both know that in *most* situations I for one very much appreciate the posts that Richard and others have put forth. While I am not in the same league as Richard, I have benefitted from discussion with him and others and have used and will use his knowledge to guide my own training schedule to become more proficient in the technical diving arena (thanks again Richard and others!). And, yes, there are times that I've had a buddy that was much more of a liability than an asset - it happens! It is much better to find this out *before* an emergency occurs and you rely on them. For that reason I always assume that someone that I have not dove with before will be a liability. Have I dove alone - yes - and I adjust my dives accordingly. Would I recommend diving solo to others, no. This is and must be a purely personal decision. If asked, would I discuss how I dive when I dive solo - of course. Open discussion breeds awareness and it may help others (as well as myself) see issues and find alternative gear arrangements/etc that are better than my current configuration. Sticking your head in the sand and pretending that solo diving doesn't exist is useless. XXX As Frank pointed out, though, this is about much more than just solo XXX diving which has been beaten to death several times on rec.scuba. XXX I apologize for including it here but I wanted the complete message XXX to be included. I dive deep (and deep to me isn't nearly as deep as many people on this list dive, but again, *I* know my limits) I make sure I take proper precautions, have a redundant gas supply to cover my ascent to the surface (including deco stops) as well as being able to support another diver under these circumstances. This is *techdiver*, not rec.scuba. People on this list are assumed to be mature *responsible* divers. >diving with a buddy is safer, that is to say *if* the buddy has the >proper skill training for the dive in question... and only on very >rare occasions would a diver be better off alone !! Here you make >it sound like you'd rather be diving alone... potentially giving >other divers out there a reason to "try" to be as proficient as you, >or justification to push limits that they are just not ready for.. >ie.. "i can dive alone cuz some of the guys that started all this >deep stuff says it's the way to go"... The type and style of each individuals diving must be decided on by themselves and they alone must be responsibile for it. I certainly don't want to have any discussion curtailed because *you* don't think it's safe. If you don't want to read or reply to one particular topic - don't. Trying to be as proficient as someone is a good idea. I think you should check out the meaning of the term proficient. If we were all as proficient at diving as Richard and some of the others on this net we'd all be in pretty good shape. XXX I did slightly misread your original statement. I assume now that XXX when you said '"try" to be as proficient' that you really meant XXX try to do the same type of diving without *being* as proficient. >you guys got to remember that most of the divers out there are >wanting to "be like you"... but THEY ARE NOT LIKE YOU !!! I know >like in Richards case he has spent years and years studying and >practicing the skills to be profecient in this sort of cutting >edge diving... but *most* of the people out there just don't have >the drive to do the same... and when someone cuts a corner on >training or education in this field they don't come back..... We are all different. We must all act and be responsible and dive within our own prescribed limits. How many times do I have to say that!!! XXX Wanting to be like someone or to do the things that they do is XXX not a bad idea. There is a ton of real world experience out there XXX that people have accumulated that is not written down (someone XXX recently mentioned the knowledge that Sheck had that's now gone). XXX A forum for open discussion such as this will at least help some XXX of these divers to put some of their experience to use by posting XXX it for others to read and assimilate. >in my opinion if you're not giving advice, you should'nt be posting it, >since putting it "out there" is sort of telling everyone it's ok... And in my opinion your posting unfairly criticises someone for posting a factual report of the diving they do. Would you flame Sheck Exley for posting a report of his old record setting dives in the 800' range - I doubt it. Also, I seem to recall a while back that *YOU* posted about new findings to be released this year showing that in water recompression may be a very valuable tool. Perhaps the shoe is on the other foot now. XXX I *am* glad that you posted it, please don't get me wrong. I quote... ...there are some studies locally (would you say covert or secret or under ...the table sorta military funded stuff!??!) that are gonna shake up a ...lot of people out there (are you listening mr shreeves :)) when the ...papers (due out this year) make the proper channels. *briefly*, it ...had been documented profusely that if the diver (patient) (pig) is ...not in treatment or back in the water within *seven* minutes there ...are significant permanent deficits... so in my opinion (one i've ...had since the begenning) there is no other choice... unquote. And *this* is coming from someone who teaches technical diving. >and in your position doesn't anything you say have the potiental of being >construed as advice... No, it doesn't. Your statement is pure, unadulterated Bullshit, especially considering your standing in the diving community and even more so with the above quote from you. XXX I apologize for the inflammatory nature of this, I was more than XXX a little upset yesterday, however, you do seem to have a double XXX standard at work here. >maybe i'm a bit over cautious... but you try training people to do this >sort of diving and see if you don't agree with me.. :) and in a way >some of you are doing just that by posting to this list.. i wonder if >there are any liability issues there... *yikes*.. Oh, geez, let's try to scare people away from open discussion. If you're so concerned about liability, I just refer you back to your earlier posting quoted above. >now for my disclaimer of a sort: please don't think that this post >is out of disrespect... cuz i certiantly do respect and love rich.. I don't think it's out of disrespect for Richard, but it *is* out of disrespect for all the rest of us who aren't yet as proficient as Richard. Once again, I and many others, learn from the information presented here but I'm the one who decides what I believe and how to incorporate this information into my knowledge base. The main key point to keep in mind is that this forum is not a substitute for proper training, and if anyone doesn't know that, they shouldn't be here. >just another point of view to be looked at... and, in my opinion, discarded. *** Flame Off *** Please don't think that this post is out of disrespect for Dennis, because he has posted valuable information to the net on occassion and I do appreciate that. Perhaps he just had a bad day. -Carl-
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