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On Thu, 27 Jun 1996 13:49:12 -0400, undersea@ga*.ne* (John W. Chluski) says,
> Good to see that this mess has cleared up. Bad for everyone.
Indeed. But as in all bad thing (such as a diving fatality or accident)
we should LEARN something good or useful from it, I hope.
> A small correction is in order: the history of development of a country's
> judicial system determines the presumption of guilt. Two basic systems,
> Napoleonic and English Common Law, characterize most, but not all, of
> industrialized and democratic countries. Under Napoleonic legal systems
> when charged you are GUILTY UNTIL proven INNOCENT. It is under English
> Common Law that if charged, you are INNOCENT UNTIL proven GUILTY.
Thanks for posting this -- so I don't have to write it myself! :-)
I received another email saying the same thing, virtually verbatim.
Thanks to all who pointed out this more technical aspects of jurisprudence.
I am just a Reef Fish, ya know. Not a shark! <G>
> Generally, countries with a strong Catholic influence tend to be Napoleonic
> and countries that went the way of the Reformation tend to be ECL.
Then there's Islamic law, Jewish law, ... not to mention George's WKPP
Law ;-) as in
gmiiii>Mexico is a very easy place to do things if you do them right, a concept
gmiiii>that is totally foreign to guys like Jones. I'd like to see them just
gmiiii>go ahead and shoot this parasite, rather than take up jail space.
I am SURELY GLAD that George wasn't in charge! He would have MURDERED
Chuck Jones, if not the other five cavers! Talk about SAFETY in George's
cave operation <G> -- 6 dead cavers in one day is not too safe! :-)
Is REVIVING cavers from having been shot dead in part of George's video?
Okay, enough of that. But if George is going to dish it out, he should
at least be held RESPONSIBILITY for what he said.
< ... John's tales of his speeding charges in Mex. elided ... >
Case (1): ... official seemed satisfied with a couple of $30 bills ...
Case (2): ... Unfortunately for the officers and fortunately for me,
they drove so recklessly fast that they lost us. ...
In most streets in Czm, especially the downtown area of Av. Rafael Melgar,
you can't drive fast enough to break any speed limit. :)
-------------------------
More seriously, the situation Chuck and his group of 6 in the archeological
expedition faced was POTENTIALLY very serious, under the laws there:
>>in Mexican Law, if charged, you are GUILTY UNTIL proven INNOCENT.
I KNOW (in great details, and so does Chuck) of a case in which a dive
shop operator was charged of an alleged crime, and said person spent
OVER A YEAR in jail BEFORE he was sentenced (declared guilty or innocent).
Remember THAT!
And there were no lawyers arguing the case, or any jury. The Judge
decided the guilt or innocence of a defendant all by himself!
Since this reply is to a posting mostly about laws, most people don't know
that in THIS COUNTRY, to convict a defendant, the plaintiff must show
(depending on the type of courts and alleged crimes), that the defendant
is GUILTY by one of these legal standards (precise legal wording):
1. preponderance of the evidence (as in People's Court on TV)
2. clear and convincing evidence
3. clear, unequivocal, and convincing
4. beyond a reasonable doubt (as in O.J. trial, criminal court)
The burden of proof lies with the PLAINTIFF.
Chuck et al, OTOH, had to convince the judge that they were INNOCENT!
The burden of proof was on the DEFENDANT.
There's nothing to joke about (or might light of) in Chuck Jone's
situation given the (fwd) first posted Message of his.
The quick dropping of all charges and innocence verdict in that case, as
reported in his 2nd Message, must have been the equivalent that they have
proven to the judge BEYOND A RESONABLE DOUBT that they were INNOCENT,
as Chuck indicated in his first message.
What do you need to do IF you want to dive the cenotes in Cozumel? Do
you need to apply for a licence (remember the Mayan treasures ;) you
may accidentally damage them, ya know? ), etc. I'll pass on other
pertinent info when I hear more from Chuck. He IS an official on some
of these matters, IN COZUMEL!
Meanwhile, dive safely,
-- Bob.
P.S. I am NEITHER a caver, nor a techdiver. I am the Reef Fish!
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