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Jammer, >So how do you get the responsibility for the DIVE (speaking as a >carpenter, not a lawyer) off the boat, the shop, the club, and onto the >DIVER? Legally? >I don't know, Carl. Looks like it sort of has to be one way or the other. >Either you is, or you ain't. (Responsible, that is.) I STILL don't buy that you are responsible for everything, no matter HOW much you scream, yell personal responsibility, etc. there ARE things that others are responsible for... So no, it is NOT black and white as much as you and I would like it to be. There is contributory negligence, etc and I think that too LITTLE personal responsibility is accepted, but, people working on THAT boat do have a responsibility to YOU. It's much easier for Rich to say yes, personal responsibility. He goes out with the SAME boat over and over and he knows them well. That just isn't true for all the vacationing divers. What you're suggesting would literally shut DOWN the recreational dive industry. Hell, what you're saying, if you took it an extended it to all walks of life is that you are responsible for everything - forget about suing that guy in the truck who just plowed into the side of your car and left you paralyzed because you KNEW it might happen when you drove that car - forget about the firefighters - you KNEW your house might burn down and you didn't plan for that - forget about getting back at the kidnapper that took your kid - you KNEW this was a dirty world where as you later say "shit happens". You see, if you just extend this a little too far it's apparent that it just does NOT work, no how, no way. >Is it reasonable to ask a diver to plan for all contingencies? You cannot possibly plan for ALL contingencies, this is a simple fact. You're trying to make your argument on emotion, not on logic, or reality. >Is it reasonable to ask a diver to "What If" a dive in advance? >Isn't it true that you plan for a stage tank to disappear or fail? Don't >you have contingencies for an O2 tank that is suddenly empty? Of course divers plan on some (common or possible) failures, you state the obvious, then later pervert this statement. >Why is a boat different? It's just one more piece of equipment, and yes, >it could vanish. The fucker could SINK. Shop's fault? No. Captain's No, it IT different. I do NOT hold the keys to the boat while I'm underwater - it is NOT a piece of equipment under my DIRECT control and, as long as someone ELSE controls it, THEY have to accept PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for controlling it - yes, how about that - personal responsibility is a TWO WAY STREET. >fault? Maybe, but he's dead. Crew's fault? Maybe, they're with the >Captain. If the boat vanishes into the typhoon that you surface in the >middle of, whose fault is that? Yea but it's would sure as hell be tough to plan having the boat HIT you and wack off an arm or a leg - worse yet, decapitate you... If you have to plan for contingencies like THAT you simply cannot dive. There are things BEYOND the control of the crew, obviously, but, making sure that they have everyone ON BOARD BEFORE they leave isn't one of them. I mean, let's be realistic, your melodramatic scenarios just don't fit it here. Acts of god can happen at any time. An idiot DM not counting you, or driving over you just shouldn't happen, period. >Point is, shit can happen. Floating in the drink 15 miles off shore, it Well, 15 miles - I'd ditch the tank and start swimming (note: I'd KEEP the compass!) and, when and if I got back the captain and crew would ALL have a nice rest in the hospital if they made it that far. >really doesn't matter even a little bit whose fault it is. Sometimes, it >isn't anyone's fault, or it's everyone's fault, one mistake compounding >another. (Been there, done that. Results in lots of yelling, fist >shaking, and a really full email box.) >It falls to the diver to deal with it or die. But, if the boat crew screws up, no question, then they're still liable and they SHOULD get sued - they should have to pay that divers family enough to compensate them for the loss. >Recognition of that fact is what I'm pushing, and I think that a >carefully crafted law would go a long way towards the goal of >institutionalizing personal responsibility, and forcing recognition of >facts that are currently being enforced by Mother Nature. It would have a >huge impact on current teaching organizations, and they would need to >start teaching personal responsibility from OW1. You keep holding up this "mother nature" symbol but, in reality, how many times has a boat gone down when divers were in the water? How many times did the whole crew get killed??? Then, how many times has a boat HIT someone or has a boat left someone in the water. I'd be willing to bet that the scales are LARGELY tipped on the human error side of things. >I also think that legislation is inevitable, and that if we don't take >the lead and write the laws first in the way we want them written, that >they will be written for us, and we won't like them... >Laws are not bad, just poorly written law is bad. >Darwinism is alive and well, and merely using different tools than a >century ago. Do you even know what Darwinian fitness means because it sure doesn't sound like it... A diver who already has his family (read: offspring) has fullfilled his place in a Darwinian sense. Removing that parent from the planet does NOTHING to change his "fitness" in the Darwinian perspective unless he planned on having MORE offspring. So if you plan on writing laws or voting on them I suggest you really learn what you're talking about first. From this darwinian thing, it's clear that you're at least foggy... >He likes divers. >1. I am responsible. >2. Don't hold your breath. No, it's 1) Don't dive with Strokes 2) Don't hold your breath 3) I am responsible for MY DIVING. -Carl-
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