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Why would a member of the WKPP have to sneak anything, Robert? If somebody
else sneaks Cheryl, I have them arrested, or I have one of my four partners,
all Sheriff's deputies, do it. The last guy they caught was that fat slob
beer salesman from Georgia, I forget his name. I guess you need to kick a
whole bunch of people off of your list, and weed it down to the real idiots
who actually cause the problems and the accidents.
Let me rephrase the question for you to answer: WHEN were you going to tell
us all about this latest deep air death?
My take is as it always has been . Alponos Pendejo is a dangerous idiot, a
piss poor example, and in my opinion a typical IANTD moron. Another deep air
diving asshole, and a third world bozo of the worst order. I guess he is on
your list under some kind of Affirmative Death Action. This guy is beyond
stupid.
David, wake the fuck up - you can't fix the problem with the Pendejo's of
the world, you need to point them out and give them the ass-kicking they
deserve until they get the message.
You are protecting idiots and dangerous practices, no matter how much lip
service you pay to me , JJ, the WKPP and DIR. You do not need to tell me
that we are the best and that I am right, I know that already. The problem
is you really do not believe it, or you would act accordingly. What is it,
are you afraid these dumb asses are not going to be your buddies? Who needs
them? That is the question that I never understand. Who the fuck needs any
of these morons?
The real action and future in tech diving is clear, and has been for some
time. We all know who and what that is. The Pendejo's need to go. PERIOD.
iginal Message-----
From: Robert Laird [mailto:rlaird@ca*.co*]
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 8:46 AM
To: Trey; cavers@cavers.com
Subject: RE: no secrets
At 05:09 AM 11/17/00, you wrote:
Bullshit - you guys put out a post complaining that your recent deep air
coverup was posted to WKPP and GUE, and you threatened to remove anyone form
that list caught putting this information out.
Don't you have a rule about tossing anyone out of WKPP if they sneak
dive, say, Cheryl Sink? Our rule has to do with information posted
on the list stays on the list. When I posted the message about the
re-post of a list message I did not know what the contents of the message
was! It didn't matter to me what the contents or purpose of the re-post
was, it was simply against our rules. If re-posting of lists is ok
in your book, then why is the GUE list a private list? The threat to
remove the person for a second violation was simply because we have
a rule about keeping list messages on the list, and he broke a rule.
Again, it doesn't have anything to do with the contents of the messages,
it's simply a rule that he agreed to, and that he broke. If he breaks
it again, he's off the list. Pretty simple.
Now let's talk about the contents of the message...
You also proposed that those who do recoveries not say anything about
what they think happened, and once again, you candy coated, omitted,
obfuscated and distorted the truth about this latest example of complete
dumb assery that occurred - 104 meters on air solo - any moron can see what
that is, and the answer to the problem is to clearly point out that this is
the example being set by the guy who was the dead person's instructor, and
to note once again that deep air is the case. I will also note , since you
are obviously not going to do so, that Aponso Pendejo is the IANTD franchise
holder for Brazil.
You seem to imply that we "candy coat" the information. How, exactly, can
we
do that when we simply reformat the text to make it more readable, but
then
publish 100% of the what the original report said? As a cave diver and as
an individual, I have ZERO desire to hide the truth about diving
fatalities
from anyone... this is why I'm so dedicated to the idea of the IUCRR.
I'll
swear on a stack of Bibles, in a court of law, in front of my mom, and
whatever
else it takes to convince you that I will never knowingly "candy coat,
omit,
obfuscate or distort" the accident reports that come our way.
Now, interpreting those reports is another issue altogether...
You guys also are in the business of ignoring reality in diving
fatalities. You are in the business of protecting and protracting the
bullshit in diving that anyone with a working brain can clearly see. Funny
that when I do recovery, there are no hidden details - I have no desire to
protect bad instructors, bad gear, bad rigs, bad judgment or other
stupidity. Apparently you do.
Like you, I have no desire to protect bad instructors, idiot divers, etc.
Our
only area that we are concerned about are the family of the victim. If
the
victim does something stupid and dies, well, no need to protect him/her...
but
the family should have the right to decide if the victims name should be
made
public. This is a time-honored principle that even the media still holds.
So,
the ONLY hidden detail you might ever see withheld is the victims name,
until
the family has been notified.
Your list is bullshit - plain an simple, and so is the NACD's. For
example, how many "unexplained" accidents have to occur in caves between 100
and 150 feet on air before you get the connection between air and cave
deaths? How many, Robert? Funny that we figured this out a while back and
solved it for our organization. You guys are doing NO good what so ever.
The list is a tool. It provides a method for call-outs and exchange of
information.
There is no pedantry or posturing about cave diving rules on the list. I
can tell you
truthfully that I'm 100% behind the idea that diving deep on air is
dangerous, and
that it ought to be included in the 5 "sins" of cave diving, but of course
we know
that many of the CDS and NACD people don't agree with that. The rules and
methods
that you and JJ have created are nothing short of brilliant and sensible,
especially
given the current technology, and I follow virtually all of them. But all
of this
has little to do with the IUCRR... it's purpose is simply to provide a
centralized
organization for underwater/overhead body recovery and/or rescues, and a
central
clearinghouse for accident reports. We don't certify divers or make
rulings about
accidents or get into arguments about foolish diving techniques.
You want to figure out how to prevent diving accidents? Look at the
rules of the WKPP - I designed them based on what I can clearly see are the
obvious problems that NONE of you get.
Oh, I think MOST of us "get it" and actually more and more people every
year are
converting their way of thinking to the DIR way... I personally encourage
everyone
I know or come in contact with to follow the DIR way... but none of that
has anything
to do with the IUCRR... We hope to help prevent (not "prevent" but "help
prevent")
more diving "stupidity" by publishing these accident reports.
Interpretation is
probably best left to experts like you, though, so we are simply in the
business of
reporting whatever facts come our way.
-- Robert
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN =
class=3D120591414-17112000>Why=20
would a member of the WKPP have to sneak anything, Robert? If =
somebody=20
else sneaks Cheryl, I have them arrested, or I have one of my four =
partners, all=20
Sheriff's deputies, do it. The last guy they caught was that fat slob =
beer=20
salesman from Georgia, I forget his name. I guess you need to kick a =
whole bunch=20
of people off of your list, and weed it down to the real idiots who =
actually=20
cause the problems and the accidents.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
class=3D120591414-17112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN =
class=3D120591414-17112000>Let me=20
rephrase the question for you to answer: WHEN were you going to tell us =
all=20
about this latest deep air death?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
class=3D120591414-17112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN =
class=3D120591414-17112000>My=20
take is as it always has been . Alponos Pendejo is a dangerous idiot, a =
piss=20
poor example, and in my opinion a typical IANTD moron. Another deep air =
diving=20
asshole, and a third world bozo of the worst order. I guess he is on =
your list=20
under some kind of Affirmative Death Action. This guy is beyond =
stupid. =20
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
class=3D120591414-17112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN =
class=3D120591414-17112000>David,=20
wake the fuck up - you can't fix the problem with the Pendejo's of the =
world,=20
you need to point them out and give them the ass-kicking they deserve =
until they=20
get the message.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D120591414-17112000></SPAN><FONT face=3DTahoma =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D120591414-17112000><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial=20
size=3D4> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN =
class=3D120591414-17112000>You=20
are protecting idiots and dangerous practices, no matter how much lip =
service=20
you pay to me , JJ, the WKPP and DIR. You do not need to tell me that we =
are the=20
best and that I am right, I know that already. The problem is you really =
do not=20
believe it, or you would act accordingly. What is it, are you afraid =
these dumb=20
asses are not going to be your buddies? Who needs them? That is the =
question=20
that I never understand. Who the fuck needs any of these=20
morons?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
class=3D120591414-17112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN =
class=3D120591414-17112000>The=20
real action and future in tech diving is clear, and has been for some =
time. We=20
all know who and what that is. The Pendejo's need to go.=20
PERIOD.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
class=3D120591414-17112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
class=3D120591414-17112000></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D120591414-17112000> </SPAN>iginal=20
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Robert Laird=20
[mailto:rlaird@ca*.co*]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 17, 2000 =
8:46=20
AM<BR><B>To:</B> Trey; cavers@cavers.com<BR><B>Subject:</B>
RE: no=20
secrets<BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE></FONT>At 05:09 AM 11/17/00, you wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dcite cite type=3D"cite"><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3Darial=20
size=3D4>Bullshit - you guys put out a post complaining that your =
recent deep=20
air coverup was posted to WKPP and GUE, and you threatened to remove =
anyone=20
form that list caught putting this information=20
out.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Don't you have a rule about tossing
anyone =
out of=20
WKPP if they sneak<BR>dive, say, Cheryl Sink? Our rule has to do =
with=20
information posted<BR>on the list stays on the list. When I =
posted the=20
message about the<BR>re-post of a list message I did not know what the =
contents of the message<BR>was! It didn't matter to me what the =
contents=20
or purpose of the re-post<BR>was, it was simply against our =
rules. If=20
re-posting of lists is ok<BR>in your book, then why is the GUE list a =
private=20
list? The threat to<BR>remove the person for a second violation =
was=20
simply because we have<BR>a rule about keeping list messages on the =
list, and=20
he broke a rule.<BR>Again, it doesn't have anything to do with the =
contents of=20
the messages,<BR>it's simply a rule that he agreed to, and that he=20
broke. If he breaks<BR>it again, he's off the list. Pretty =
simple.<BR><BR>Now let's talk about the contents of the =
message...<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dcite cite type=3D"cite"><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3Darial=20
size=3D4> You also proposed that those who do recoveries not =
say anything=20
about what they think happened, and once again, you candy coated,=20
omitted, obfuscated and distorted the truth about this latest =
example=20
of complete dumb assery that occurred - 104 meters on air solo - any =
moron=20
can see what that is, and the answer to the problem is to clearly =
point out=20
that this is the example being set by the guy who was the dead =
person's=20
instructor, and to note once again that deep air is the case. I will =
also=20
note , since you are obviously not going to do so, that Aponso =
Pendejo is=20
the IANTD franchise holder for Brazil. </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You
=
seem to=20
imply that we "candy coat" the information. How, exactly, can =
we<BR>do=20
that when we simply reformat the text to make it more readable, but=20
then<BR>publish 100% of the what the original report said? As a =
cave=20
diver and as<BR>an individual, I have ZERO desire to hide the truth =
about=20
diving fatalities<BR>from anyone... this is why I'm so dedicated to =
the idea=20
of the IUCRR. I'll<BR>swear on a stack of Bibles, in a court of =
law, in=20
front of my mom, and whatever<BR>else it takes to convince you that I =
will=20
never knowingly "candy coat, omit,<BR>obfuscate or distort" the =
accident=20
reports that come our way.<BR><BR>Now, interpreting those reports is =
another=20
issue altogether...<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dcite cite type=3D"cite"><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3Darial=20
size=3D4>You guys also are in the business of ignoring reality in =
diving=20
fatalities. You are in the business of protecting and protracting =
the=20
bullshit in diving that anyone with a working brain can clearly see. =
Funny=20
that when I do recovery, there are no hidden details - I have no =
desire to=20
protect bad instructors, bad gear, bad rigs, bad judgment or other=20
stupidity. Apparently you do.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Like you, I =
have no=20
desire to protect bad instructors, idiot divers, etc. =
Our<BR>only area=20
that we are concerned about are the family of the victim. If=20
the<BR>victim does something stupid and dies, well, no need to protect =
him/her... but<BR>the family should have the right to decide if the =
victims=20
name should be made<BR>public. This is a time-honored principle =
that=20
even the media still holds. So,<BR>the ONLY hidden detail you =
might ever=20
see withheld is the victims name, until<BR>the family has been=20
notified.<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dcite cite type=3D"cite"><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3Darial=20
size=3D4>Your list is bullshit - plain an simple, and so is the =
NACD's. For=20
example, how many "unexplained" accidents have to occur in caves =
between 100=20
and 150 feet on air before you get the connection between air and =
cave=20
deaths? How many, Robert? Funny that we figured this out a while =
back and=20
solved it for our organization. You guys are doing NO good what so=20
ever.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The list is a tool. It provides
a =
method=20
for call-outs and exchange of information.<BR>There is no pedantry or=20
posturing about cave diving rules on the list. I can tell=20
you<BR>truthfully that I'm 100% behind the idea that diving deep on =
air is=20
dangerous, and<BR>that it ought to be included in the 5 "sins" of cave =
diving,=20
but of course we know<BR>that many of the CDS and NACD people don't =
agree with=20
that. The rules and methods<BR>that you and JJ have created are =
nothing=20
short of brilliant and sensible, especially<BR>given the current =
technology,=20
and I follow virtually all of them. But all of this<BR>has =
little to do=20
with the IUCRR... it's purpose is simply to provide a=20
centralized<BR>organization for underwater/overhead body recovery =
and/or=20
rescues, and a central<BR>clearinghouse for accident reports. We =
don't=20
certify divers or make rulings about<BR>accidents or get into =
arguments about=20
foolish diving techniques.<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dcite cite type=3D"cite"><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3Darial=20
size=3D4>You want to figure out how to prevent diving accidents? =
Look at the=20
rules of the WKPP - I designed them based on what I can clearly see =
are the=20
obvious problems that NONE of you =
get.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Oh, I=20
think MOST of us "get it" and actually more and more people every year =
are<BR>converting their way of thinking to the DIR way... I personally =
encourage everyone<BR>I know or come in contact with to follow the DIR =
way...=20
but none of that has anything<BR>to do with the IUCRR... We hope to =
help=20
prevent (not "prevent" but "help prevent")<BR>more diving "stupidity" =
by=20
publishing these accident reports. Interpretation is<BR>probably =
best=20
left to experts like you, though, so we are simply in the business=20
of<BR>reporting whatever facts come our way.<BR><BR> --=20
Robert<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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