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I really wasn't talking about taking bones and fossils in the caves, I was
talking about changing things.  More the damage caused to the caves.
Pulling, pushing (pull and glide, is that what its called?) takes it's toll
on the caves much like the original lighting of fires in land based caves.
Most caves have changed over the past 30 years or so from diving.  Prior to
that I don't think they changed much.  I'm not criticizing here as I like to
explore as much as the next guy, just trying to put things into perspective.
I also know that most cave divers try as hard as possible to minimize the
damage to the caves.  As an avid wreck diver I just don't like being
criticized for recovering artifacts that should not have been there in the
first place.   Taking a porthole or hatch plate does little to effect the
environment and breeding grounds down there.  Raising a hull for scrap is
another story.

I have a strange feeling that this is going to spark a flame war (the reason
I was vague in the first place).  Sorry about that!

Art.


	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Drew Glasbrenner [SMTP:glasbrenner@mi*.co*]
	Sent:	Monday, December 13, 1999 7:24 AM
	To:	Paltz, Art
	Cc:	techdiver@aq*.co*; cavers@cavers.com
	Subject:	Re: Hessian Scorecard

	Art,
	    I couldn't care less about the topic of this thread, but let me
make
	something clear. Cavers, both wet and dry, DO NOT take anything out
of the
	cave. This is a basic tenet of the NSS, and other caving groups
worldwide.
	The formations that nature created over a time span most humans
cannot grok
	do not belong on someone's mantleplace.

	While this does not change your original argument, it is an
important
	clarification.

	Drew Glasbrenner

	-----Original Message-----
	From: Paltz, Art <Art.Paltz@R2*.CO*>
	To: Mailing Tech Diver List (E-mail) <techdiver@aq*.co*>
	Date: Monday, December 13, 1999 6:49 AM
	Subject: RE: Hessian Scorecard


	>Do you work for the press o something?  You've taken this out of
context.
	>My point, which I thought I made clear, was that some people enjoy
diving
	in
	>caves and others enjoy wreck diving.  Some recover artifacts while
others
	>take rock samples.  In both cases if left alone no one would learn
from
	>them.
	>
	>Give us all a break Peter!  We're not talking about appartide (SP?)
or
	>genocide; we're talking about portholes and rock samples....
You're trying
	>to provoke a fight.  I think you need to get out and dive.....
	>
	>Art.
	>
	>
	> -----Original Message-----
	> From: Peter Fjelsten [SMTP:fjelsten@ma*.do*.dk*]
	> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 1999 1:05 PM
	> To: Paltz, Art
	> Cc: Mailing Tech Diver List (E-mail)
	> Subject: RE: Hessian Scorecard
	>
	> Den 20:38 10-12-99  skrev Paltz, Art:
	> >I don't criticize them so they shouldn't criticize me.
	>
	> I don't want to get inveolved in this but the statement above is
	> ridiculous.
	>
	> By this token one cannot criticize governments that torture its
	>citizens -
	> unless, of course, THEY have criticised you in the past. Come on!?
	>--
	>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
`techdiver@aq*.co*'.
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`techdiver-request@aq*.co*'.

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