I use argon for my bike...denser, thus leaks out slower. I am curious the thermal properties on a hot day...Think I would be more prone to blowouts? Now *this* could be an interesting thread. Trout -----Original Message----- From: Chris Werner <clw5232@ga*.ac*.fs*.ed*> To: techdiver@aq*.co* <techdiver@aq*.co*>; Joel Silverstein <joelsilverstein@wo*.at*.ne*> Cc: Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*>; Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>; bdi@wh*.ne* <bdi@wh*.ne*>; Mark the Nark Andrews <extreme@de*.fr*.co*.uk*>; Afonso Pinheiro Junior <afonso0@ib*.ne*>; Barrie Heard <bheard@dc*.ne*.au*>; Bill Nadeau <tekdiver@na*.ar*.co*>; Dick Rutkowski <dick@hy*.co*>; Erika Haley <haley@ca*.ky*>; Fabio Amaral <fabio_amaral@ya*.co*>; Fabio Ruberti <ruberti@io*.it*>; Frans Vandermolen <75204.1243@co*.co*>; wahoo2001@ao*.co* <wahoo2001@ao*.co*>; WahooJan@ao*.co* <WahooJan@ao*.co*>; Garlooent@ao*.co* <Garlooent@ao*.co*>; Garry Howland <ghowland@fw*.gu*.ne*>; Gil <gildiver@di*.co*.br*>; Gina & Mark Leonard <ginamark@at*.ne*>; Gregg Stanton <gstanton@ma*.fs*.ed*>; IANTD Czech <kony@un*.cz*>; IANTD Germany <iantd@su*.de*>; IANTD Greece <iantdgr@at*.mb*.gr*>; IANTD Holland <tekkie@xs*.nl*>; IANTD Ireland <IANTDIRL@ao*.co*>; IANTD JAPAN <iantdjp@di*.co*>; IANTD Japan Training <iantdjp@di*.co*>; IANTD Korea <aad@sa*.co*>; IANTD Micronesia <psdivers@ku*.gu*.ne*>; IANTD Philippines <iantd-rp@i-*.co*.ph*>; IANTD Philippines Alex <techsec@i-*.co*.ph*>; IANTD Portugal <po12210@pt*.ib*.co*>; IANTD S.E. Asia <khooss@si*.co*.sg*>; IANTD Scandanvia <egil@av*.fi*>; IANTD South Africa <iantdsa@ia*.co*>; IANTD Spain <iantdspa@dn*.ii*.es*>; IANTD Sweden <info@ia*.co*>; Jill Heinerth <heinerth@gt*.ne*>; Jim Mims <divetek@oc*.co*>; John Thornton <Johnpt@sc*.co*>; Joseph Dituri <dive4wrk@pi*.co*>; kevin gurr <100044.3401@co*.co*>; Kim Cochrane <Cochrane@ac*.co*>; Lamar Hires <lamar@di*.co*>; Nick Jewson <NickJewson@co*.co*>; Paul Lijnen <paull@vi*.uu*.be*>; Paul Neilsen <mandarin@ga*.ne*.hk*>; REG BOER @ BARBARA HENSBY <regboer@bi*.co*>; Richard Nordstrom <74663.1663@co*.co*>; Richard Pyle <deepreef@bi*.or*>; Shelley orlowski <orlowski@at*.ne*>; Vebjørn Karlsen <karlsenv@on*.no*>; Victor Williams <diving@sp*.co*>; William J Turbeville II <bturbo@ga*.ne*>; Jr." <ahall@da*.co*>; cavers@cavers.com <cavers@cavers.com>; Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>; kirvne@sa*.ne* <kirvne@sa*.ne*>; "\"Jess Armantrout\"" <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; Dan L. Volker <dlv@ga*.ne*>; "\"Jody Everett\"" <jeverett@ne*.co*>; Lawrence Orchard-London <lorchard@Ru*.co*>; john@ro*.co*.uk* <john@ro*.co*.uk*> Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 2:40 PM Subject: Re: DEEP AIR VOTE >Joel, this thread is absolutely one of the most misguided posts I've ever >read. You and the entire cc list of this post must be the toughest divers >out there. No one I dive with ever uses air for anything, except to inflate >our bike tires. Air is absolutely the worst diving gas available. As you >began your little rant, I must admit that the first sentence is the only one >that made any sense. In fact, air should be completely banned from all >diving and training. It is preposterous to even conclude that anyone can >function rationally on air at 150' let alone 175'. You must still not get >it. Why would you ever use air? Trimix should always be used below 130', >with nitrox used for everything shallower. Not one diver I dive with even >uses any mix with greater than 100' EAD. This is one of the single largest >problems with so called 'tech' diving today. > No one can work on air efficiently at the depths you advocate. This is >like saying we should all go get drunk and drive our cars to practice being >intoxicated while operating a motor vehicle. Most of us are all lucky to >have survived deep air and its associated wrath upon our bodies. From the >narcosis to the damage done during decompression, AIR IS THE WRONG CHOICE. >Air should never be your safety gas. Switching from trimix to air at depth >is a recipe for disaster. This is what is contributing to many of the >fatalities occurring today. We are all in a position to change this, in fact >I even see that Tom Mount is finally coming around. No doubt it only took >the insanity of Mark Andrews to open his eyes. You and everyone on the cc >list (I must admit one of the largest collection of DIW divers I have ever >seen) need to stop yapping and start listening to those of us who are doing >it, and doing it safely. I agree that experience is one of the greatest >attributes of good divers, but consistently DIW for so long is not >experience it is just luck. Good divers DIR, not get by on chance and luck. > This post of your is almost as ridiculous as you trying to tell us on >freeattic how to change stage bottles. You for one need to quit diving all >together before you get someone killed with your misinformation. > >AIR at any depth = NO > >Chris > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Joel Silverstein <joelsilverstein@wo*.at*.ne*> >To: <techdiver@aq*.co*> >Cc: Bill Mee <wwm@sa*.ne*>; Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>; ><bdi@wh*.ne*>; Mark the Nark Andrews <extreme@de*.fr*.co*.uk*>; >Afonso Pinheiro Junior <afonso0@ib*.ne*>; Barrie Heard <bheard@dc*.ne*.au*>; >Bill Nadeau <tekdiver@na*.ar*.co*>; Dick Rutkowski ><dick@hy*.co*>; Erika Haley <haley@ca*.ky*>; Fabio Amaral ><fabio_amaral@ya*.co*>; Fabio Ruberti <ruberti@io*.it*>; Frans Vandermolen ><75204.1243@co*.co*>; <wahoo2001@ao*.co*>; <WahooJan@ao*.co*>; ><Garlooent@ao*.co*>; Garry Howland <ghowland@fw*.gu*.ne*>; Gil ><gildiver@di*.co*.br*>; Gina & Mark Leonard <ginamark@at*.ne*>; >Gregg Stanton <gstanton@ma*.fs*.ed*>; IANTD Czech <kony@un*.cz*>; IANTD >Germany <iantd@su*.de*>; IANTD Greece <iantdgr@at*.mb*.gr*>; IANTD >Holland <tekkie@xs*.nl*>; IANTD Ireland <IANTDIRL@ao*.co*>; IANTD JAPAN ><iantdjp >Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 10:46 AM >Subject: Re: DEEP AIR VOTE > > >> Dear Fellow Divers, >> >> With the current state of gas availability using non-narcotic breathing >> mixes is not necessary to conduct dives deep with air. However it would >> behove most of those who are out there on the training and working end of >> this business to at least be able to work and function with N2 pressures >of >> 5.0. There may come a time when it is needed. As I look over this long >> list, it is pretty clear that most everyone here has done successful dives >> to 175 fsw (and deeper) with air (if not they would not be on the list). >> >> Most if not all of use were doing air dives in the late 80's early 90's >> when the development of technical (read TRIMIX) was making its way through >> the scuba ranks. Key people like Billy Deans made the switch to gas and >set >> the pattern for open ocean mix diving, but still he would consider 175 fsw >> for air to be a reasonable depth that people should be able to use air >for. >> The USN and most every commercial operation still uses air to depths of >> 190 fsw on a regular basis using hat and hose. >> >> As much as we would like to STAMP OUT DEEP AIR -- there will always be >> those who will take anything and everything deeper than they should. We >> have little control of that. However, we can take them one at a time and >> provide them with the tools and information to make a rational informed >> decision as to what type of dive they will do. >> >> I do not use air for any of our training deeper than 150 fsw. I do not >> belive that the students can conformably do the work they need to do under >> a greater level of narcosis. Frankly if a diver cannot use that viable gas >> to that depth then they have no business diving deeper than 100 fsw. >> >> We need to keep in perspective that much of what we know today came from >> some brave (albeit misinformed) people who stepped out farther and deeper >> than others would care to at a time when they had a need to go look at >> something. >> >> Unfortunately there had been some successful failures along the way. But >we >> all learned from them. There were also successful survivors, who have been >> more than instrumental in the development of our activities. >> >> We are about to go through a new cycle in divers. The accidents will rise >> because these divers have no reference point. The average diver today >> buying "techincal" gear has less than 50 career dives. What was once >> equipment for the "hard core deep divers" is now commonplace in most every >> dive store. Just like fast cars, and fast planes, the inexperienced find >> this attractive and belive they can do things they are just not prepared >to >> do. We each have a responsiblity to head that off at the pass. These >divers >> need to put in a few hundred practicle dives before they can begin >> attempting some of these deeper dives, on ANY gas. A CLEAR HEAD IS NOT AN >> EXCUSE FOR EXPERIENCE. We each have a responsiblity to question Should >they >> Dive Tech? >> >> DEEP AIR >> >> Air deeper than 175 fsw for practicle diving -- NO >> Air deeper than 150 fsw for training -- NO >> >> Regards, >> >> Joel Silverstein >> http://www.nitroxdiver.com >> >> >> >> >
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