Cobb and Allen you guys are so tough I want to see you take the fake Gavin
scooter and some of Arnold's shitty bottom-fall-off-lights  to 18,000ft at
300 ft depth. I'll be waiting with my kneepads.  That is if you can make it
back. Unproven equipment is not worth the waste of time.

Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Jody Everett <jodyev@in*.co*>
To: 'William Allen' <william@ca*.co*>; 'Jesse Armantrout'
<armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; 'Jim Cobb' <cobber@ci*.co*>; 'Miller,
Barry' <rat@ne*.co*>; 'Michel Therrien' <m.therrien@ne*.qc*.ca*>;
Pagefix@ao*.co* <Pagefix@ao*.co*>
Cc: 'cavers' <cavers@cavers.com>; 'Tech Diver' <techdiver@aq*.co*>
Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 8:10 PM
Subject: RE: Pictures


>Why is it that anyone who actively promotes this place called NESupply(W.
>Allen and Jim"the Gavin scooters can be found here" Cobb) seem to be should
>such staunch supporters of AUL.
>
>Coincidence...?  Maybe...Maybe not.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: William Allen [mailto:william@ca*.co*]
>Sent: Thursday, March 25, 1999 4:19 PM
>To: Jesse Armantrout; Jim Cobb; Miller, Barry; Michel Therrien;
>Pagefix@ao*.co*
>Cc: cavers; Tech Diver
>Subject: Re: Pictures
>
>Ah a lucid argument, tough guy, me, naw. Just a person with a different
>opinion than yours. So let me get this straight the first light was
improved
>by AUL's version, than Barry's came out, another improvement. So now what
>are the odds that Barry's light are the end of the improvements?
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>
>To: William Allen <william@ca*.co*>; Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>;
>Miller, Barry <rat@ne*.co*>; Michel Therrien
><m.therrien@ne*.qc*.ca*>; Pagefix@ao*.co* <Pagefix@ao*.co*>
>Cc: cavers <cavers@cavers.com>; Tech Diver <techdiver@aq*.co*>
>Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 4:14 PM
>Subject: Re: Pictures
>
>
>>Shattering...interesting choice of words.  That, tough guy, was the
problem
>>with the AUL's...the bottom fell off.  The shitty connector was minor.
>>
>>Peir (sic) pressure?  Yeah, right.  I choose the gear I am going to do
cave
>>exploration at 300 feet deep and a mile and a half back based on peer
>>pressure.
>>
>>An area you are very familiar with?  How?  How many of the gas divers have
>>you dove with?
>>
>>I hope your lights are better than your logic.
>>
>>Trout
>>
>>----------
>>> From: William Allen <william@ca*.co*>
>>> To: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; Jim Cobb
>><cobber@ci*.co*>; Miller, Barry <rat@ne*.co*>; Michel
Therrien
>><m.therrien@ne*.qc*.ca*>; Pagefix@ao*.co*
>>> Cc: cavers <cavers@cavers.com>; Tech Diver <techdiver@aq*.co*>
>>> Subject: Re: Pictures
>>> Date: Thursday, March 25, 1999 3:03 PM
>>>
>>> You mean the banana plug? earth shattering. So there was a need and
Barry
>>> filled it, intro to business 101. Unless we're talking about a different
>>> Barry I doubt he's sorry he started making lights as a matter of fact I
>>> think one of the reasons Barry is so "vocal" about his light is he's
>>proud
>>> of his product and company. As far as all the WKPP using them ( an area
>>I'm
>>> very familiar with) I would call it peir pressure. Now if it was only a
>>wkpp
>>> product why the massive marketing attempt and rather blatant attempt at
>>> making your product better by running down everyone else's. When I bring
>>my
>>> lights out I'll send one to Barry to look at and evaluate before we
start
>>> marketing them. As I'm proud of my product and I'm sure Barry would like
>>to
>>> be one of the first to see them.
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>
>>> To: William Allen <william@ca*.co*>; Jim Cobb
>><cobber@ci*.co*>;
>>> Miller, Barry <rat@ne*.co*>; Michel Therrien
>>> <m.therrien@ne*.qc*.ca*>; Pagefix@ao*.co* <Pagefix@ao*.co*>
>>> Cc: cavers <cavers@cavers.com>; Tech Diver <techdiver@aq*.co*>
>>> Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 3:52 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Pictures
>>>
>>>
>>> >Let me rephrase that...
>>> >
>>> >AUL lights incorporated features that Barry Miller lights were using a
>>few
>>> >weeks after Barry began selling lights.  Better?
>>> >
>>> >The fact is, the only reason Barry began selling lights, something I am
>>> >sure he regrets, is because nobody was making a light the way many
>>members
>>> >of the WKPP wanted their lights made which was, by the way, the way
>>Gavin
>>> >made them.  Now, I believe all the lights being used by WKPP gas divers
>>are
>>> >either Gavin lights or Miller lights with the exception of George's one
>>> >NiCad.  This too is contrary to what the web page would have you
>>believe.
>>> >
>>> >Trout
>>> >
>>> >----------
>>> >> From: William Allen <william@ca*.co*>
>>> >> To: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; Jim Cobb
>>> ><cobber@ci*.co*>; Miller, Barry <rat@ne*.co*>; Michel
>>Therrien
>>> ><m.therrien@ne*.qc*.ca*>; Pagefix@ao*.co*
>>> >> Cc: cavers <cavers@cavers.com>; Tech Diver <techdiver@aq*.co*>
>>> >> Subject: Re: Pictures
>>> >> Date: Thursday, March 25, 1999 1:41 PM
>>> >>
>>> >> Barry's lights were copied by AUL what's this a time warp? I believe
>>all
>>> >> these lights are basically copies of another person's light. I
believe
>>> >> barrys lights came out quite a bit after AUL's although he did make
>>some
>>> >> changes to them. Before anybody has stroke AUL did not design them
>>> >either.
>>> >> English engineering I think was the first.
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: Jesse Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>
>>> >> To: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>; Miller, Barry
>><rat@ne*.co*>;
>>> >> Michel Therrien <m.therrien@ne*.qc*.ca*>; Pagefix@ao*.co*
>>> >> <Pagefix@ao*.co*>
>>> >> Cc: cavers <cavers@cavers.com>; Tech Diver <techdiver@aq*.co*>
>>> >> Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 2:34 PM
>>> >> Subject: Re: Pictures
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> >Sorry, Jim, gotta call bullshit here.  I could care less what
>>language
>>> >> >anybody uses.  If the stuff works, I buy it.  But then, I like Eddie
>>> >Murphy
>>> >> >and George Carlin, too.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Barry lights work.  And Barry is a great guy.  I am told that AUL
>>lights
>>> >> >now work fairly well since they copied Barry's lights.  The web
page,
>>> >> >however is in the wrong.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >End of story.  Let's go back to talking about hose routing or upside
>>> >down
>>> >> >tanks or some other stupidity.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Trout
>>> >> >
>>> >> >----------
>>> >> >> From: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>
>>> >> >> To: Miller, Barry <rat@ne*.co*>; Michel Therrien
>>> >> ><m.therrien@ne*.qc*.ca*>; Pagefix@ao*.co*
>>> >> >> Cc: cavers <cavers@cavers.com>; Tech Diver
<techdiver@aq*.co*>
>>> >> >> Subject: Re: Pictures
>>> >> >> Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 11:46 AM
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Hey, Barry, you were doing great until that last sentence. I don't
>>buy
>>> >> >> this "holier than though" stuff of yours, either.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> You know, generally speaking, it never ceases to amaze me how
>>> >> >> manufacturers or representatives come on to these public forums
and
>>> >> >> proceed to directly or indirectly piss off or alienate the very
>>people
>>> >> >> upon whom their income depends.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Like it your not you are one of these manufacturers and getting on
>>> >these
>>> >> >> lists with long profanity laced tirades is simply not a bright
>>thing
>>> >to
>>> >> >> do. For every person who supports you  there are ten or a hundred
>>who
>>> >> >> will take their business elsewhere.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> And a common saying in Marketing is "don't get mad, get even" my
>>boy,
>>> >if
>>> >> >> you get my drift (wink, wink, nod, nod).
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>    Jim
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Sender: Miller, Barry  Date: 3/24/99 12:13 PM
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> >Mr. Cobb,
>>> >> >> >   You could not be further from the truth. As a matter of fact,

>>your
>>> >> >view
>>> >> >> >seems to be in the minority. The day that you do something then
>>have
>>> >> >> >someone steal it will show a change of attitude, that is the day
>>you
>>> >do
>>> >> >> >something. It is very difficult to say anything without you and
>>your
>>> >> >> >friends throwing in the fact that I build equipment. I am not
sure
>>> >where
>>> >> >> >you get that I am doing the marketing, maybe you need to go look
>>at
>>> >this
>>> >> >> >web page and tell us again who is doing the marketing. I am
>>speaking
>>> >as
>>> >> >an
>>> >> >> >individual trying to protect what is mine, while these "people"
>>are
>>> >> >using
>>> >> >> >my work to sell and promote their product. If one day I decide to
>>use
>>> >> >any
>>> >> >> >of my work to promote anything I do and you don't like it, then
>>you
>>> >can
>>> >> >> >also fuckoff.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >Barry
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >At 10:59 AM 3/24/99 -0500, Jim Cobb wrote:
>>> >> >> >>Oh for Christs Sake, lets get real here. The reason that the
>>ratster
>>> >> >has
>>> >> >> >>his panties in a wad is the fact that this web site promotes AUL
>>> >> >products
>>> >> >> >>and not his gear. All this huff-and-puffery is just a
smokescreen
>>> >and a
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> >>bunch of baby-like boo-hooing that, frankly, does not reflect
>>well
>>> >on
>>> >> >> >>Miller or his products.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>You are in the real world now, Miller, you need to start acting
>>like
>>> >a
>>> >> >> >>business professional and not a redneck hillbilly pickemuptruck
>>> >cowboy.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> >>You need to take your marketing medicine like a man and quit
>>> >belaboring
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> >>the list with your whining.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>   Jim
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>Sender: Michel Therrien  Date: 3/24/99 9:29 AM
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>>Dear Pagefix, (who is Pagefix?)
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>>I am not Barry's friend, nor a WKPP diver or affiliate.  I will
>>> >admit
>>> >> >that
>>> >> >> >>>I don't always like the attitude of some WKPP leaders.
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>>This said, the reason why I wrote the message is not to defend
>>> >> >Barry... it
>>> >> >> >>>is a question of principle.  I have no tolerance for pirating,
>>> >> >steeling and
>>> >> >> >>>unethical behavior such as taking someones material without his
>>> >> >permission.
>>> >> >> >>> I propably have this attitude because I worked in the software
>>> >> >industry (I
>>> >> >> >>>don't know).
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>>Is there a reason why you stay anonymous?  This is another
thing
>>I
>>> >> >have
>>> >> >> >>>problem with... I guess.
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>>Please note that the issue for me is not legal... it is
ethical.
>>> >While
>>> >> >the
>>> >> >> >>>law may allow to copy someone's material for educative
purposes,
>>I
>>> >> >don't
>>> >> >> >>>think this is honest.
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>>Is it so hard to ask permission to use material PRIOR to using
>>it?
>>> >I
>>> >> >was
>>> >> >> >>>flattered that the NSS-CDS recently asked me to use some of my
>>> >> >pictures.
>>> >> >> >>>On the other hand, I would have been really pissed off if I saw
>>my
>>> >> >pictures
>>> >> >> >>>without any prior discussion about their use.
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>>Michel Therrien
>>> >> >> >>>Montreal, Canada
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>>PS: I know it is unethical to copy private messages in public
>>> >forums,
>>> >> >but I
>>> >> >> >>>started public and I think your answer may help the rest of the
>>> >crowd
>>> >> >to
>>> >> >> >>>understand your position.
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>>At 09:04 AM 3/24/99 EST, you wrote:
>>> >> >> >>>>Michel the video was given to one of our sponsors and we took
>>some
>>> >> >clips of
>>> >> >> >>>>it.  The law states that you can us this type of material as
>>long
>>> >as
>>> >> >you
>>> >> >> >are
>>> >> >> >>>>not selling it to make a profit.  We e-mailed Barry with an
>>> >apology
>>> >> >for the
>>> >> >> >>>>mistake and fixed the problem.  He didn't post that part on
you
>>> >> >cavers list
>>> >> >> >>>>just the other parts that he wanted you to see.  The fact of
>>the
>>> >> >matter
>>> >> >> >is we
>>> >> >> >>>>would have agreed with what he asked but after the flaming he
>>gave
>>> >us
>>> >> >we
>>> >> >> >took
>>> >> >> >>>>a defensive posture.  What is wrong with him has he no respect
>>for
>>> >> >> >>>anything or
>>> >> >> >>>>one?  I am sorry if you want to punish AUL for Barry Millers
>>> >Flaming
>>> >> >and
>>> >> >> >Lies
>>> >> >> >>>>to us.  But if you feel like the only way to help Barry is
>>kicking
>>> >> >another
>>> >> >> >>>>company so be it.
>>> >> >> >>>>Most people don't use the language that Barry has used to a
dog
>>> >but
>>> >> >if he
>>> >> >> >>>>wants to talk like that it a free country and God bless him.
>>> >> >> >>>>Please except our apologies for any misunderstanding and
thanks
>>> >for
>>> >> >you
>>> >> >> >>>input.
>>> >> >> >>>>pagefix@ao*
>>> >> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >>>>
>>> >> >> >>>--
>>> >> >> >>>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
>>> >> >`techdiver@aq*.co*'.
>>> >> >> >>>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
>>> >> >`techdiver-request@aq*.co*'.
>>> >> >> >>>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >> >> Learn About Trimix at
>>http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/trimix.html
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >>  Learn About Trimix at
>>http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/trimix.html
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> --
>>> >> >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
>>> >`techdiver@aq*.co*'.
>>> >> >> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
>>> >`techdiver-request@aq*.co*'.
>>> >
>

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