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Tom, leaving the bs out, the reason we use glucose is that once you eat anything or take on ANY sugar in any form, the risk is that the blood sugar level will fall back below what it was to start with. Hypocglycemic responce. The resulting drop has been implicated in potentiating oxtox. Get me right here: I am saying that once you ingest any sugar, it must be continued every forty five minutes in the water to avoid this risk. I have no diabetics ( if I did they would have to figure out their own regimen, and would not be doing marathon diving anyway), so I am not worried about this at all. It is how it must be done. Who started this practice at the WKPP? Sheck Exley. Who figured out why? Bill Mee. Low blood sugar invites oxtox in the long exposures. Adding sugar means conitinuing to add sugar. Now let's get back to the bullshit. We do not exclude anyone. I am responsible for team safety. My name is on the permits ( although this year I am shifting all of that to other people, and they will be responsible ), and I am the one who has been held responsible up to now. Avoiding screwups is a lot easier than explaining them. I do not have a Bill Stone or a Babs Am Ende to bullshit my way out of clusters-I have to avoid them. Avoiding accidents is not the same as being a bad guy. The good guys who preceeded me presided over way too many due to the nice guy nature of their personalities. When it comes to doing it right , I have no friends and don't care. Interestingly, this is the attitude of those who will take this project forward. Our orgainization now generally accepts the realities of what we do, and are all fully on board with conducting these activities in a fashion that contrubutes to the greatest degree of team safety and success. We have many people, and they do what they have to do , and they do what they fell comfortable doing, and they all do whatever that is very well. Otherwise, nobody would ber doing any 18,000 foot dives or even any 18 foot dives. Look, Tom, I do not have the answers to everyone elses problems. I have the answers to what I understand and know. Extenuating circumstances will have to find anohter home. All I know is that I don't want to hear about medictaions and diving. Take the medication, get better, then go diving. If that is not posssible, keep in mind that failure to dive is not a crime. If there are forms of diabetes which do not preclude diving, then go for it, but be sure that what you do, and whom you do it with are not jeopardized in the name of self-indulgence. That will be your call, and your call only. Tom Mercier wrote: > > George, First, I am not a diabetic. Secondly, I am not like your mother ( > I assume so, as I don't know the woman)... however you know or imagine her > to be. Third, Your party is Your party. You can invite or exclude whoever > you want from your group for whatever reason you want. And yes, I think you > may be an asshole about things...but an very bright and well educated > asshole and from what I hear a very good diver....albeit somewhat closed > minded, rigid and dogmatic towards those humans you feel are not up to your > personal standards. Finally,You mention an attack. Hypoglycemia (LOW > blood sugar) will result in coma and death if not dealt with...this is > different from a Hyperglycemic attack. And I am not trying to argue with > YOU at all...I was pointing out the ignorance (please note that what I > believe to be Mr. Sallot's ignorance has nothing to do with his > intelligence) of Ken Sallot statements and attempting to educate him. > Divers with diabetes can dive and can dive safely, if they stay within > their limitations....this may not mean out 18,000' as Your buddy. And it > makes me nervous that you are sugaring your divers in the water...I think > you may be in for a suprise some day. Thank you for your comment. > > Tom Mercier > > ---------- > > From: kirvine@sa*.ne* > > To: Tom Mercier <merciert@ti*.co*> > > Cc: Ken Sallot <kens@ac*.ne*>; cavers@cavers.com > > Subject: Re: in all seriousness > > Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 6:56 AM > > > > Tom, in WKPP we generally do not allow diabetics to do the dives we do . > > It puts too much risk on all of us. I am the one who made that decison, > > I am the one you can (try) to argue with, not my guys. Diving is not an > > activity that we have to participate in. > > > > Diving and medication do not mix. We have seen too many cases of people > > being killed diving on antidepressants, people toxing from various > > medications from decongestants to estrogen, and too many unquantifiable > > interactions between medication , gases, and pressure. > > > > Why take the chance? Look at what keeps happening to Stone with his > > crowd of medicants. I stay nervous enough about sports supplements > > without introducing sophisticated drugs into the picture. > > > > A huge problem in long exposure diving, which you touched on, is the > > hypoglycemic attack ( you mentioned coma ). We are concerned about that > > due to its implication in tox. For that reason, our divers must be able > > to tolerate glucose admisistration in water every 45 minutes once their > > blood sugar first begins to lower - diabetics can not play that game. > > > > I am not trying to be an asshole, I am an asshole when it comes to drugs > > and diving, fitness and diving, or preconditions and diving. This is due > > to the hand on the burner experience that I have had with this. I do > > however symathize with your condition, and wish I had answers for that - > > I do not, unless you are like my mother, whose diabetes is self induced > > due to eating like a pig, drinking alchohol, and refusing to do any > > exercise. Same genes, different results . > > Tom Mercier wrote: > > > > > > Ken, could you shed some light on your medical training....I think the > key > > > word here is 'risk' not cause, not everyone who is overweight, or out > of > > > shape, is at risk of diabetes. Conversely not everyone who is in shape > and > > > within weight is free of the risk of diabetes. Diabetics normally know > what > > > their blood sugar is thru testing, a simple procedure that can be done > > > predive. It is the individual who does not know he is diabetic who is > most > > > at risk of a sudden hypoglycemic coma. What makes you think that the > extra > > > stresses of decompression have anything to do with diabetes? It is good > > > that the individual you met in Atlanta beat his diabetes thru diet and > > > exercise, many can. Diabetes does not usually preclude diving, > > > decompression diving or extreme environment diving providing the > individual > > > knows his/her limitations (and if the diabetic individual takes the > care of > > > predive testing). Much like knowing how long your dive gases will last. > > > Your fear that your diabetic buddy will go into a coma seems to be > based on > > > ignorance rather than fact. > > > > > > Captain Tom Mercier BSc > > > Diver Medical Technician Advanced > > > Nationally Registered Paramedic > > > Hyperbaric Medical Technician > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > From: Ken Sallot <kens@ac*.ne*> > > > > To: Bill Cowan <BCowan@pc*.gu*.ne*> > > > > Cc: cavers@cavers.com > > > > Subject: Re: in all seriousness > > > > Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 7:06 AM > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > Turn off the caps lock before writing email to anyone or you'll not > > > > get much in the way of pleasant responses. > > > > > > > > Type 2 is adult onset, correct? Usually caused by being overweight. A > > > > quote from www.diabetes.org, "The risk of developing type 2 diabetes > > > > increases with age, obesity, and lack of physical activity." > > > > > > > > The risk is that at some point during the dive a diabetics blood > > > > sugar drops to such a point that they go into a diabetic coma. > > > > Decompression diving especially puts the diver at risk of this > > > > because of the extra stresses on the body (hypothermia, extra > > > > exertion, etc). > > > > > > > > For recreational diving I would say to a non-insulin dependent > > > > diabetic they should be ok as long as they get doctors approval to > > > > engage in the activity. > > > > > > > > But, for decompression diving, overhead environment (cave/wreck), or > > > > deep diving, any diabetic who engages in the activity (insulin > > > > dependent or non-insulin dependent) is needlessly putting both > > > > himself and his dive buddies at risk. If you're a type 2 diabetic > > > > then you need to quit cave diving, period. I know you may not like > > > > this answer, but it's for your own good. If you're insulin dependent > > > > you need to quit diving of any sort. > > > > > > > > On the other hand, there are numerous studies of non-insulin > > > > dependent type II diabetics who have beaten the diabetes curse > > > > through diet and exercise. I know a guy in Atlanta who a year ago was > > > > diagnosed as a diabetic, and when I saw him at the NACD conference in > > > > November he informed me the doctors couldn't find a trace of diabetes > > > > in him now. He beat it through diet and exercise (although his diet > > > > is a little radical). So, if you're a non-insulin dependent diabetic, > > > > take the weight off and start a regular exercise program. The only > > > > thing holding you back is yourself. > > > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > From: "Bill Cowan" <BCowan@pc*.gu*.ne*> > > > > > To: "Ken Sallot" <kens@ac*.ne*> > > > > > Subject: Re: in all seriousness > > > > > Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:56:23 -0600 > > > > > > > > > I DO NOT KNOW OF THIS INCIDENT, BUT AS A CAVE DIVER WHO IS A TYPE > 2 > > > > > DIABETIC, I WAS WONDERING WHAT DIABETES HAD TO DO WITH HIS > APPARENT O2 > > > TOX. > > > > > IF ANYONE HAS ANY GOOD INFO ON DIABETES (TYPE 1 OR 2) AND DIVING > PLEASE > > > > > EMAIL ME WITH IT. THIS SUBJECT IS CURRENTLY UNDER STUDY BY DAN AND > IS > > > OF > > > > > VERY SPECIAL INTEREST TO ME. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Ken Sallot <kens@ac*.ne*> > > > > > To: cavers@cavers.com <cavers@cavers.com> > > > > > Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 3:27 PM > > > > > Subject: in all seriousness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did hear someone toxed at Wakulla yesterday. I have heard he's > > > > > alive, but that's all. > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone know how long he's been a diabetic? The word was his > > > > > diabetes coupled with a head cold (which made him take a bunch of > > > > > sudafed) contributed to his higher then usual susceptability to > > > > > oxygen toxicity. > > > > > > > > > > Ken > > > > > "Say, is that your Captain Marvel secret decoder lunchbox you got > > > > > hanging back there?" - Anon E. Mouse > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Say, is that your Captain Marvel secret decoder lunchbox you got > > > > hanging back there?" - Anon E. Mouse > > > > > > > >
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