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Here's what I've been able to make of this War going on between some
of the people on this list....I'll use some quotes to illustrate.
>>
>> Your last message is irresponsible: what if someone
>>tries the Argon? The latest Navy study says it's the
>?>oxygen content independent of the innert gas (for many
>>good reasons), and Hamilton et al have always maintained
>>that the inroduction of additional inert gases may not
>>work in practice for offgassing, only to limit nitrogen
>>uptake or any other single gas uptake while ongassing.
>> - George Irvine
>>
<to this I replied back to Mr. Irvine via private E-Mail..
<<Argon is already being used on DEEP dives as an intermediate deco gas.
<<You may want to protect everyone from new and controversial ideas,
but I
<<thought the purpose of this forum was to Explore just such topics.
I think Chris is right here...this list is to discuss possibilites,
as well as facts. As long as he say that this idea may not
be accepted or safe, let's go ahead and keep the discussion open.
Chris writes back:
<If I insulted Mr. Irvine, I am publicly apologizing for having done so,
it
<was not my intention to insult him. To challenge his opinion, to be sure,
<but not to insult.
Very good...sometimes even when someone isn't at fault, an apology can
be very appropriate and help.
George Writes:
> Chris, you are an "abysmal weenie" as well. Now
>you can call a personal injury attorney and tell him how
>"hurt" you are by my foul slurs on your "weenie-ware". Let
>me repeat, you're pathetic attempts to advertise this
>piece of crap are annoying to those of us who actually
>do the diving with our own asses on the line, while your
>flaccid ass is on a chair somewhere with a copy of "Aquacorps"
>on one hand and your you-know-what in the other.
> Not only is it a violation of the policy of this list, it
>is irresponsible. Now I have had it with you and your
>nonsense and will hoist you on your own petard if you
>continue whine like the crybaby that you obviously are.
>And by the way, when and if you ever get to where you
>actually have a clue, you will want to do the "only
>right thing" when you reread your own nonsense, which
>would be to take out Bill Main's service revolver, and
>blow your ....ing head off. George Irvine
I don't know why this comment even had to be made. It really isn't
fair at all. From what it looks like, it's mostly the (WKPP)
people who make the really rude stabs, so I'm sure its all just
the group getting together to try to be as juvenile as possible.
If it were a sincere dislike of the product, then any negative commenbts
are sure acceptable IF THEY"RE ABOUT THE PRODUCT...but in this case
they are clearly directed at the person, which simply isn't
right.
Really, George, I have in the past had a great respect for your
opinions, and thank you for helping out with the cavers list stuff,
but this kind of personal stab does nothing but generate resentment
for you AND your group. You speak of how dive areas will be off
limits to other divers and you will still be able to dive there, but
I think that if this is to be true, you would best keep your personal
image at a better standard. Bad press is bad press for everybody.
Like I said, I really have respected your comments and agreed with
many, but if even people as nice as Rich Pyle are not happy about
these comments, then something has gone overboard.
As far as the product stabs go, here's another quote:
Barry Miller writes:
>Chris,
> I've never used your peice of crap, and never will.
>I will not because of your cry-baby attitude if someone dosen't like
>it and says so in public or not. If your product cannot stand on its
>own two feet without having to run to your mama and your lawers every
>time someone says something bad about it, then it should be trashed!
>If you or your product can't stand the heat, then get it out of the
>line of fire, or better yet, get it off the list!!!!!
> Barry Miller
> Member
> Woodville Karst Plain Project
Really, it isn't at all fair to insult a product if you haven't
ever used it yourself. I for one have used it, and Pro-Planner,
and I have found plusses and minuses with both, but I currently
use Abyss because I have compared and I prefer a little more
conservative deco schedule. For Barry to make these comments
is childish and unfair. Again, notice the signature and remember,
you don't want bad press for ANY project.
As far as lawyers go, Chris, don't bother with the lawyers,
as this is clearly ONE group of people who are choosing to be so
insulting, and as long as the rest of the list recognize this,
that's what counts. If OTHER people who have used the program
have that strong of a negative opinion for NO PERSONAL reason,
then it's time to fix the program, but this kind of childish
insulting is easy to see through.
Harold Gartner writes:
>I, for one, have watched Mr. George Irvine flame, insult, and name call
>enough. I'm tried, Mr. Irvine, of having to read your personal attacks on
>those of us who report, as factually as possible, accidents as if we were
>personally responsible. I note that when the tables are turned and an
>accident strikes close to "your home" your attitude changes.
>Isn't it possible to impart your knowlege without personal insults,
> challenges, and name calling? Because of the manor in which you have
>responded here in the past, I have begun to ignore your messages.
>Please let's restore some knowledgable and PLEASANT discussion to this
group.
>I, for one, would hope you recognize the need to appologize to Chris and
>would further hope that no futher appologies would ever be necessary in the
>future....
I agree...I'm really getting bored of these discussions of whether some
diver is stupid or not, or whether Chris and his product are any good
or not. It's the personal attacks that hurt. Anyone who has feelings
at all actually feels for the person getting insulted.
George, when you were right and people cut you down, I wanted to write
my support for you too.
Lets just leave out the insults and name calling and get back to business.
and I agree, at this point I think an apology to Chris is DEFINATELY
deserved. If there has to be this much friction, I think that many
people would take sides and end up siding with Chris, simply because
he has been more civil....and at that point maybe the cavers have to
stay on cavers if they're insulting, and the others read on Techdiver.
Too bad people sometimes can't at least exist in the same cyberspace
together, eh? (I was married before, so I know what it's like to bicker!)
Some "Mike" guy writes:
> I can't believe this crap. I enjoyed George's "direct" comments in past
>discussions, and the responses they generated. I can't help but respect
>his knowledge and achievements, but I think he should see a doctor.
> George, if it could possibly mean anything to you, that gurgling noise
>you hear is respect going down the plug-hole.
I agree that I've also enjoyed George's "direct" comments in the past,
and I respect his knowledge and achievements, but when it is directed
in a BITING manner towards someone it's too much.
Chris Brown Writes;
>Name-callers are nonny -nonny- poo-poo. They kiss their dogs on the mouth.
>You guys are ka-ka makers who look at your gerbil's naughty bits all the
>time. You eat your own boogers -- and other people's too!You fart in the
>bathtub and pop the bubbles with your nose. You eat worm samdwiches and
>turds on a toothpick. How am I doing? Keeping up with the best, I hope.
>(BTW, I had expert consultants help me with this -- credit is due to
>Sunshine and Sandbox Day-Care and Diaper Service :"Helping Little People
>Become Big people")
>Where is John Cleese when we really need him?
This is a great attempt to lighten a bad situation and hopefully bring
it to an end. Chris B., this one was so funny I just had to post it again
for you...I laughed my ass off over it!
So, where am I at? Probably where most of the Techdiver list is at, other
than the WKPP people... I wish the argument was over, I wish Chris and
his software the best and I look forward to more upgrades. I wish
for NEW decom programs to compare and play with. I wish that George
would apologize to Chris. I wish the 3rd issue of DeepTech was out so I
could read more great articles, and see what the WKPP has accomplished
then...I hope they connect the 3 other systems. I wish I had another
$5,000 to spend on new tanks and dive shit. I wish my old Suburban would
turn into a NEW suburban so my boat could race up to Lake superior.
I wish I had dive trips EVERY weekend to the Great lakes. and last, but
definately not least....
I wish that the stuff that hits my mailbox from Techdiver was more
worth reading!!!
Everybody, Take Care...
George, apologize and be nice.
Chris, apologize again and hang in there.
Tim (Me), Pray that this doesn't drag yourself into this mess.
See ya!
Tim Olson
Underwater Ventures
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