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>From: mat.voss@t-*.de* (Matthias Voss) >To: Simon Naunton <snaunton@ho*.co*> >CC: techdiver@aquanaut.com >Subject: Re: detecting bends >Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 00:24:30 +0100 > > > >Simon Naunton schrieb: > > >This can be done without tools. > > >I do not know the tools needed for the cited check, but can imagine >that > > >it implies the use of well maintained binoculars ( not sure about the > > >degree of magnification needed. > > > > True. Having the ability to perform more than one type of check is not a > > good thing? > >true. Is there something like a 5 minute bubble check for laymen? Not at the moment, but if research like this continues then maybe there will be and it will become as common as carrying emergency O2. If there is no research like this, then definitely not. > > > > > I would like to see more of this study as well, which is why I think >George > > is wrong to have dismissed it so quickly and on so little evidence. The > > chamber they use is the main hyperbaric treatment facility in New South > > Wales so the data could have been obtained from real patients. I suspect > > that this is the case - for starters, it would be cheaper. > >this may well be. Does it constitute a more or less closed group of data >because these will reflect the style of diving imposed down under by the >Queensland laws ( no decompression diving, depth limits, use of >computers ) ? Queensland is a different state to NSW. NSW has no code of practice for recreational diving - yet. There is a fair amount of decompression diving undertaken in Sydney (only a limited amount trimix diving though). Most of the diving, however, is �normal � recreational diving. Since it is likely that most, if not all, of the test subjects came from Sydney or nearby maybe a possible future test can be refined to �a test to determine if a diver who completed a non decompression dive in NSW is bent�, however, I do not think that location has much to do with it and the diving fraternity in Sydney (or indeed the population of Sydney as a whole) is huge mix of different ethnic and cultural backgrounds, especially if you include tourists/travelers, so any cultural factors are likely to have been covered. A code of practice, based on QLD's, may be introduced in NSW soon. The code in Queensland does not prohibit decompression diving or govern the use of computers. Pretty much everything is determined by the level of training the diver has attained, much like most places in the world. The code is based more around what a dive operation has to provide and procedures it has to follow, not what an individual has to do i.e. on a private boat or from the shore you can do whatever you want. > > > > > >If there is a sufficient number of observed data, there will be no > > >concern of an alpha error, if not, following guidelines derived from > > >this study will add accidents to the DCS statistics where divers > > >received no timely treatment because they did not show a sufficient > > >number of bubbles in their tear liqid, and this perhaps in spite of > > >neurologic symptoms. > > > > Probably not. In Germany doctors may well adopt the attitude of "we are >not > > 100% sure you have (whatever ailment) so will not give you any >treatment". > >There is some truth in this. Sometimes it affords to bully your way to a >chamber. >Hopefully you can communicate in the native language ( of which we have >quite a few in Europe). Hey, why not get cards printed up saying "I am a scuba diver. I think I may be bent. Please send me to the nearest hyperbaric chamber." in several languages. A bit like the card diabetics often carry around. > > > > > In the UK and Australia a doctor is likely to be more cautious. > >Hopefully >Matthias > > > > > > > > > >Matthias > > > > > >Simon Naunton schrieb: > > > > > > > > I see your point, if you live/dive in Europe or the US. However, if >for > > > > instance you live in Australia or the South Pacific where it may be > > >several > > > > thousand kms to the nearest chamber, a simple diagnosis tool may be >a > > >good > > > > idea. > > > > > > > > >From: mat.voss@t-*.de* (Matthias Voss) > > > > >To: Simon Naunton <snaunton@ho*.co*> > > > > >CC: John.Brett@qu*.co*, techdiver@aquanaut.com > > > > >Subject: Re: detecting bends > > > > >Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:56:24 +0100 > > > > > > > > > >I did not keep the message refferring to the study, so this is only > > >from > > > > >my memory: > > > > >Wasn't it said that Bennett _reported_ on the study ? So , if >correct, > > > > >he would not even need be directly related to this investigation, >which > > > > >seems, to my view, a bit obsolete. > > > > > When a diver shows symptoms, and his history of decompression is > > > > >known, then next steps/ measures are obvious. No need to treat >someone > > > > >with no symptoms. > > > > > > > > > >So , if this study even was on the right track, to what purpose I >may > > > > >question. > > > > >If a diver showed symptoms, _then_ look into his liquids for >bubbles, > > > > >and, to decide _what exactly_, which would not have to be decided >to > > > > >begin with . Get a Heli _or not_ ? Throttle lLever down the >dashboard > > > > >_or not_ ? Report to the chamber _or not_ ? > > > > >The mere idea gives me some chills, and a distinct notion to beware >of > > > > >quickshot medical reviews. > > > > >Matthias > > > > > > > > > >Simon Naunton schrieb: > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: John.Brett@qu*.co* > > > > > > >To: snaunton@ho*.co* > > > > > > >Subject: RE: RE: detecting bends > > > > > > >Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 04:42:19 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because this is an forum for the discussion of technical > > > > > > > > diving and another > > > > > > > > diver made a statement I happened to disagree with on the > > > > > > > > basis of the facts presented. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I'm still struggling to work out what basis you have on > > > > > > >which to express your disagreement. Do you have more > > > > > > >knowledge than the WKPP about decompression? > > > > > > > > > > > > Errmm... no, and I haven't claimed to have. > > > > > > > > > > > > >Do you know > > > > > > >Dr Bennett? > > > > > > > > > > > > Not personnally. How, apart from being a leader for you to name > > >drop, is > > > > > > this relevant? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Strictly speaking, we are not talking about > > > > > > > > decompression, we are > > > > > > > > talking about the possibility of a simple method of > > > > > > > > determining whether a diver has DCI or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Ugh! It seems that you haven't understood G's comments. > > > > > > >Detecting *venous* bubbles isn't the same as detecting > > > > > > >a bend - a PFO makes a *big* difference to their significance. > > > > > > >There's also far more going on at the sub-clinical level > > > > > > >before you get visible symptoms, by which time the damage > > > > > > >is done. > > > > > > > > > > > > So are you saying that once someone is bent then there is no >point > > >in > > > > > > attempting treatment? > > > > > > > > > > > > I have sent this in a mail that has yet to appear on the list, >but > > >are > > > > >these > > > > > > venous bubbles? Could they not have been formed directly from >gas in > > >the > > > > > > divers mask? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regardless of > > > > > > > > > > the achievements you have made with the WKPP, which are > > > > > > > > > > truly impressive, I > > > > > > > > > > am more inclined to believe a doctor who specialises in > > > > > > > > > > hyperbaric medicine than yourself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Your loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subjective. It could be considered you loss as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I know how to deco, thanks to G. > > > > > > > > > > > > I too have learned from him. I reiterate that I am in no way > > >challenging > > > > >his > > > > > > deco procedures. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not so sure. A prostitute would probably be able to give a > > > > > > > > trick or two on > > > > > > > > avoiding the clap, but a doctor would be far more likely to > > > > > > > > be able to tell > > > > > > > > you what is going on in the body with some degree of > > > > > > > > accuracy. Similarly, > > > > > > > > George and the WKPP are a wealth of information on deco > > > > > > > > practice, however, > > > > > > > > AFAIK none of them have spent enough time at med school, if > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Bill Mee is a doctor of microbiology (WKPP project engineer) > > > > > > > > > > > > Did he attended medical school? BTW I am not trying not to be > > > > >provocative. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > any time at all, > > > > > > > > to go up to a hyperbaric doctor and tell him he is wrong, > > > > > > > > particularly with > > > > > > > > the minute amount of information presented in the email. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Dr Hamilton goes to the WKPP for advice... > > > > > > > > > > > > I thought the WKPP acted as test-ish subjects-ish? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I read somewhere that George was a stock broker. I believe > > > > > > > > that Dr Bennett > > > > > > > > is very active in his field, both treating patients and > > > > > > > > conducting research, so could hardly be called a >theoretician. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >So just how much do you know about Dr Michael Bennett? > > > > > > >Does he actually dive? > > > > > > > > > > > > Not much. I don't know. What is the relevence of whether he >dives or > > > > >not? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By the same token though, I do not > > > > > > > > believe that any of the WKPP have ever sold their bodies for > > > > > > > > the sexual > > > > > > > > gratification of another party, but I also have never met >any > > > > > > > > of them so > > > > > > > > that is pure speculation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Speculation appears to form the basis of your arguments. > > > > > > >Not the best basis on which to work. > > > > > > >I've tested G's decompression strategy to the best of > > > > > > >my ability, so I have a little more basis than speculation > > > > > > >on which to rate G's opinions over a doctor of whom I've > > > > > > >never heard. > > > > > > > > > > > > As I have already said, I am not challenging G's decompression > > >strategy > > > > >- I > > > > > > am not in the position to do that, just his rubbishing of Dr > > >Bennetts > > > > >study > > > > > > based on the information contained in one paragraph written by a > > > > >newspaper > > > > > > journalist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Personally, I'd rather listen to someone who bets his > > > > > > > > >life on the outcome, rather than one who bets a published > > > > > > > > >paper. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > True, but this is not really relevant in this context. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With apparently 0 incidents of DCI amongst WKPP members, how > > > > > > > > much experience > > > > > > > > does the WKPP have with DCI compared with a hyperbaric > > > > > > > > doctor? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Sigh. You obviously have *no* idea about the WKPP. > > > > > > >The US Navy come to the WKPP for decompression advice, and > > > > > > >have sent their hyperbaric doctors to examine WKPP divers > > > > > > >after diving. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your point being? They have loads of experience at DCI >avoidence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bottom line: > > > > > > > > Have the WKPP studied the formation of bubbles in the tear > > > > > > > > film of the human > > > > > > > > eye due to changes in ambient pressure? Probably not. Has Dr > > > > > > > > Bennett? Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The relevance being...? > > > > > > > > > > > > The relevence being that Dr Bennett has studied it and concluded > > >that > > > > > > subjects with 20-30 bubbles in the tear film of their eyes also >had > > >DCI > > > > >and > > > > > > those with 2-3 did not. G & the WKPP, AFAIK, have not studied >this, > > >so > > > > >how > > > > > > can G justify his statement that it is bullshit - but I guess >that > > >you > > > > > > cannot answer that John. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >The issue is not so much whether additional bubbles appear in > > > > > > >the tear film after diving, but the interpretation & relevance > > > > > > >of the findings. Just finding bubbles isn't the same as DCI, > > > > > > >which isn't the same as needing treatment. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that you are looking at this from the wrong angle. I >don't > > > > >believe > > > > > > that Dr Bennett even implies that these bubbles are the cause or > > >part of > > > > >the > > > > > > damaging part of DCI, there are simply 20-30 bubbles with >subjects > > >with > > > > >DCI > > > > > > and 2-3 with subjects without, therefore, the possiblity exists >for > > >an > > > > >easy > > > > > > test. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >John > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > > > > > > http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > > >`techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > > >`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > >-- > > > > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to >`techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > > > >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > > >`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > > > Simon Naunton > > > > snaunton@ho*.co* > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: >http://messenger.msn.com > > > > Simon Naunton > > snaunton@ho*.co* > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com Simon Naunton snaunton@ho*.co* _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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