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Look, moron, all you care about is your little dry caving weenie helmet. You
let all else that makes any sense go by the wayside for that precious little
helmet. That makes you a total idiot, just like every other stroke who sees
only one facet and lets all else go in order to satisfy that obsession. You
not only know NOTHING about cave diving, you just don't get the importance
of doing things in a cohesive and consistent fashion.

The most important aspect of the dive light is the signaling capability. You
don't get that, and in fact you spend a great deal of argument telling how
helmeted lights somehow work. They do not. They do not in dry cave, they do
not underwater.

You have no business getting on a diving list and spewing crap in order to
satisfy you one little phobia ( the helmet). If you think you have to have
that helmet, than figure out a way to bring it to the dry cave along with
the climbing gear for which it might be necessary without sacrificing every
part of the best system ever developed,. and stop being a drooling idiot
about it in public. Your arguments are worst than the Brits. At least they
admit they don't give a flying fuck about buddies or anyone else.

You are just a dangerous idiot, and again, the kind of stroke that Rule
Number One is designed to avoid. Your thinking is what I hate in this sport.
Helmets have no place in cave diving.
  -----Original Message-----
  From: JDisler401@ao*.co* [mailto:JDisler401@ao*.co*]
  Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 11:53 AM
  To: girvine@be*.ne*; scoff_cavedivinggroup@ho*.co*;
techdiver@aquanaut.com
  Subject: Re: Helmets for cave diving. What's the deal?


  In a message dated 01/20/2002 7:10:39 AM Central Standard Time,
girvine@be*.ne* writes:





    Jeff, I am sick of idiots. I am sick of the Brits with their nonsense.
You just make it worse by spewing out sheer idiocy. Ask Reinhard how he got
his sleeping bag into the sumps, you fucking moron, and stop wasting my time
with bullshit. I don't care what you think is necessary for caving. Helmets
are bullshit in diving, and there is very little reason to expect to need
one in a horizontal cave situation.


  George, I agree that the promotion of improper caving techniques is a
waste of time, but only you can choose to waste your time by doing so.
  I do not know how Reinhard transports his bivouac or dry caving gear
beyond the sumps. However, I do know what method I have used to do the same.
  Perhaps that is something that could be discussed between parties who are
actually involved and those who share a passion for that endeavor.
  You make the assumption that the passage beyond the sump is horizontal in
nature which thereby eliminates the need for a helmet.

  An analogy of your opinion that it is better to dry cave using a goodman
handle is like suggesting you ride a motorcycle at night while shinning a
flashlight down the desired direction af travel.
  There is however little I can do to change that opinion and that is not
the focus of this discussion.
  The purpose of my initial comments to this thread were directed to the
techniques involved for sump diving. Since there are few on this list who
are involved with this activity, and seemingly fewer who wish to have their
opinions heard, I will concede that this is not the proper outlet for this
discussion.


  Regards JD

  L
    et's look at some of the really stupid things you and the Brits have
said . The fact that you don't actually do any of this is funny because you
come up with the same crap they do and they claim to be big shots at it.
They even claim some "traverse record" which is a screaming joke since other
than the 14+ thousand foot deep traverse that JJ and I did a few years ago,
the previous "record" was held by Bill Gavin and Lamar English since 1987.

    Now, the bullshit. For one thing, if you put a light on a helmet, the
only way you can look at something is by turning your whole head to point at
it. You can not just move your eyes like you can when you are holding the
light by its goodman handle. There is no reason you can not climb or
negotiate with a goodman handle. I made one with a strap when I went dry
caving last. On the other hand, putting the light on your gear subjects it
to getting hit, to falling off, to pulling the stupid helmet off, to
tangling the cord, to making it impossible to negotiate any kind of problem
while tied in to the light on you head, etc. Never mind looking like a
complete moron.

    Putting backup lights there, like the Brits do, is beyond the pale
stupid. ( Then those morons generally leave them turned on, adding to the
stupidity).

    Cave diving is something I know a little more about than your or the
cumulative Island of Great Britain, and I am quite certain of that as it
gets proven to me by all of you every time you try to argue with me about
it. DIR is the best system for doing this. We do all kinds of diving with
it. The perversions and nonsense that the strokes come up with is not going
to cut it , can not be rationally explained or justified, is the root of
most accidents , and for them we have Rule Number One.

    I don't care what kind of stupid things anyone else dopes, but don't
expect me to do anything but laugh and call it stupid. Brett Gilliam has
been doing extremely deep air dives for years , and so I guess by the logic
of you and the Brits, this must be ok since he is still alive. Right?






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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D577212611-22012002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Look,=20
moron, all you care about is your little dry caving weenie helmet. You =
let all=20
else that makes any sense go by the wayside for that precious little =
helmet.=20
That makes you a total idiot, just like every other stroke who sees only =
one=20
facet and lets all else go in order to satisfy that obsession. You not =
only know=20
NOTHING about cave diving, you just don't get the importance of doing =
things in=20
a cohesive and consistent fashion. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D577212611-22012002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D577212611-22012002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>The=20
most important aspect of the dive light is the signaling capability. You =
don't=20
get that, and in fact you spend a great deal of argument telling how =
helmeted=20
lights somehow work. They do not. They do not in dry cave, they do not=20
underwater.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D577212611-22012002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D577212611-22012002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>You=20
have no business getting on a diving list and spewing crap in order to =
satisfy=20
you one little phobia ( the helmet). If you think you have to have that =
helmet,=20
than figure out a way to bring it to the dry cave along with the =
climbing gear=20
for which it might be necessary without sacrificing every part of the =
best=20
system ever developed,. and stop being a drooling idiot about it in =
public. Your=20
arguments are worst than the Brits. At least they admit they don't give =
a flying=20
fuck about buddies or anyone else.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D577212611-22012002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D577212611-22012002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>You=20
are just a dangerous idiot, and again, the kind of stroke that Rule =
Number One=20
is designed to avoid. Your thinking is what I hate in this sport. =
Helmets have=20
no place in cave diving.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
JDisler401@ao*.co* =

  [mailto:JDisler401@ao*.co*]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, January 20, 2002
=
11:53=20
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> girvine@be*.ne*; =
scoff_cavedivinggroup@ho*.co*;=20
  techdiver@aquanaut.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Helmets for cave
diving. =
What's=20
  the deal?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT
face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2>In a=20
  message dated 01/20/2002 7:10:39 AM Central Standard Time,=20
  girvine@be*.ne* writes: <BR><BR><BR><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE"><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff
=
size=3D2=20
    FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">Jeff, I am sick of idiots. I am sick of the =
Brits with=20
    their nonsense. You just make it worse by spewing out sheer idiocy. =
Ask=20
    Reinhard how he got his sleeping bag into the sumps, you fucking =
moron, and=20
    stop wasting my time with bullshit. I don't care what you think is =
necessary=20
    for caving. Helmets are bullshit in diving, and there is very little =
reason=20
    to expect to need one in a horizontal cave situation. </FONT><FONT =
lang=3D0=20
    face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D3=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#000000 size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR></FONT><FONT =
lang=3D0 face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#000000 size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">George, I agree that the =
promotion of=20
  improper caving techniques is a waste of time, but only you can choose =
to=20
  waste your time by doing so. <BR>I do not know how Reinhard transports =
his=20
  bivouac or dry caving gear beyond the sumps. However, I do know what =
method I=20
  have used to do the same. <BR>Perhaps that is something that could be=20
  discussed between parties who are actually involved and those who =
share a=20
  passion for that endeavor. <BR>You make the assumption that the =
passage beyond=20
  the sump is horizontal in nature which thereby eliminates the need for =
a=20
  helmet. <BR><BR>An analogy of your opinion that it is better to dry =
cave using=20
  a goodman handle is like suggesting you ride a motorcycle at night =
while=20
  shinning a flashlight down the desired direction af travel. <BR>There =
is=20
  however little I can do to change that opinion and that is not the =
focus of=20
  this discussion. <BR>The purpose of my initial comments to this thread =
were=20
  directed to the techniques involved for sump diving. Since there are =
few on=20
  this list who are involved with this activity, and seemingly fewer who =
wish to=20
  have their opinions heard, I will concede that this is not the proper =
outlet=20
  for this discussion.</FONT><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
size=3D3=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"> <BR><BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0
face=3DArial =
color=3D#000000=20
  size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">Regards JD <BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#000000 size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR></FONT><FONT =
lang=3D0 face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">L
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE">et's look at some of the really stupid things you and =
the Brits=20
    have said . The fact that you don't actually do any of this is funny =
because=20
    you come up with the same crap they do and they claim to be big =
shots at it.=20
    They even claim some "traverse record" which is a screaming joke =
since other=20
    than the 14+ thousand foot deep traverse that JJ and I did a few =
years ago,=20
    the previous "record" was held by Bill Gavin and Lamar English since =

    1987.</FONT><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D3 =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">=20
    <BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff
size=3D2=20
    FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">Now, the bullshit. For one thing, if you put a =
light on a=20
    helmet, the only way you can look at something is by turning your =
whole head=20
    to point at it. You can not just move your eyes like you can when =
you are=20
    holding the light by its goodman handle. There is no reason you can =
not=20
    climb or negotiate with a goodman handle. I made one with a strap =
when I=20
    went dry caving last. On the other hand, putting the light on your =
gear=20
    subjects it to getting hit, to falling off, to pulling the stupid =
helmet=20
    off, to tangling the cord, to making it impossible to negotiate any =
kind of=20
    problem while tied in to the light on you head, etc. Never mind =
looking like=20
    a complete moron.</FONT><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
size=3D3=20
    FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"> <BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0
face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">Putting backup lights there, like the =
Brits do, is=20
    beyond the pale stupid. ( Then those morons generally leave them =
turned on,=20
    adding to the stupidity).</FONT><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial =
color=3D#000000 size=3D3=20
    FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"> <BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0
face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">Cave diving is something I know a =
little more=20
    about than your or the cumulative Island of Great Britain, and I am =
quite=20
    certain of that as it gets proven to me by all of you every time you =
try to=20
    argue with me about it. DIR is the best system for doing this. We do =
all=20
    kinds of diving with it. The perversions and nonsense that the =
strokes come=20
    up with is not going to cut it , can not be rationally explained or=20
    justified, is the root of most accidents , and for them we have Rule =
Number=20
    One.</FONT><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D3 =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">=20
    <BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff
size=3D2=20
    FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">I don't care what kind of stupid things anyone =
else=20
    dopes, but don't expect me to do anything but laugh and call it =
stupid.=20
    Brett Gilliam has been doing extremely deep air dives for years , =
and so I=20
    guess by the logic of you and the Brits, this must be ok since he is =
still=20
    alive. Right?</FONT><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
size=3D3=20
    FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">
<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></H
TML>

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