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I have just one question: Why do you keep saying "You"? I'm not a cave diver, here or anywhere else. I thought the way I referred to the CDG as "them" rather than "us" would have made that clear. I came across the article I posted a while ago, and found it an interesting one. It's the only place I've come across that doesn't just say "Our approach is just as good as DIR" but actually goes so far as to say "DIR wouldn't work here." And having seen some of the photos in their gallery page, such as http://www.cavedivinggroup.org.uk/images/Photos/BBC/pages/Gary_gif.htm I found it hard to refute their argument that backmounts wouldn't work, or that it would be very hard to pass a reg to someone behind you in some of the caves they dive in. If you'd like to clarify how you would/do get through such narrow passageways with standard DIR kit, I'd like to hear it. Purely out of academic interest, since I have no interest in diving in easy or difficult cave systems. Simon asked about helmets in cave diving. I posted a link to an article by some cave divers that says why they use them. He was free to read it and either think "Hey, good idea" or "What a bunch of garbage", and that would have been the end of it. But then you went and said "Just for laughs, tell us all why the helmets are used". I did so. I'm sorry to hear you didn't get the laughs you wanted. Regards Dominic >From: "George Irvine" <girvine@be*.ne*> >Reply-To: <trey@ne*.co*> >To: "Dominic Humphries" <diverdominic@ho*.co*>, ><techdiver@aquanaut.com> >Subject: RE: Helmets for cave diving. What's the deal? >Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 06:12:53 -0500 > >This is complete crap. You guys are so far off it is ridiculous - anything >to support your won flagrant stupidity. You come on over here to >Tallahassee >and tell me how "big, warm and easy access" Leon Sinks and the rest of our >systems are. You see videos we make in spring tunnels that feed conduit >caves. I know you take comfort in trying to say it looks easy to mask the >clown act that you guys perform, but the fact is we make it look easy and >none of you could get to first base in any cave relative to us using your >methods. Ask your big time British moron buddies who joined the USDCT and >tried to take us on in Wakulla with their British Bullshit methods, helmets >and all. If it is so big warm and easy, why did they use helmets? Because >they are morons. They spent 90 days trying to get to where I send an >advance >team to drop bottles and scooters, and missed more than half the cave, and >took twice as long to go any distance they went. 90 days to get to where JJ >and I get in 90 minutes. Tell me about British cave diving so I can get an >even bigger laugh. I guess limestone is different in the UK, water is >different there, and all of the other things are different to account for >the Mondo Bizzaro methods you ignoramuses use to do everything. > >Keep making excuses for your incompetent stupidity. I love the part about >"bashing your head". That fits for most of you guys because you have zero >technique or diving ability, have the worst gear mess possible, and operate >on pure ego and macho bravado trying to prove something, but only proving >how ridiculous your methods are. > >Helmets are for dry caving to keep things from falling on your head, not >for >keeping your head from hitting things. > >Only the worst moron would then put lights on the helmet or be stupid >enough >to store anything on the helmet. That is just beyond the pale stupid, but >standard stroke practice. > >You people have no system for anything other than "every man for himself", >and that is well documented, and you can not tell me otherwise. You have >contributed nothing but comedy to the sport, and you never will doing it >your way. At the same time, you make up bullshit about us and excuses why >you can not do things that we do in our sleep. > >Tell me all about you "systems" for cave diving now and why they are >anything but bullshit. I notice that you guys always mention the WKPP in >every argument against the obvious and try to badmouth it. Come on over >here >like Stanton and his idiot pal Jason did, bring your best and brightest, >and let me make an ass out of you in spades , too. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Dominic Humphries [mailto:diverdominic@ho*.co*] >Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 8:21 AM >To: techdiver@aquanaut.com >Subject: RE: Helmets for cave diving. What's the deal? > > >I didn't realise following a link was so hard. Still, the article in >question says: >Next, in the UK, we always wear helmets! We guarantee you that your head >gets bashed on the roof of the cave at least once during a dive, and in >some >of the smaller sumps, it will be constantly grinding against the rock roof. > >For a time-saver, here's the whole article: >Many people have now taken "cavern-diving" or "cave-diving" courses, and >dived in the warm, clear caves of such places as Mexico, Florida, Dordogne >& >Majorca. These areas provide easy, interesting and pleasurable cave diving. >There are significant differences between those areas, and the UK. >Here are some things that we would tell anyone thinking of going >cave-diving >in the UK - things we think they should know... >Firstly, only a small proportion of the British Isles consists of the >limestone in which caves most commonly occur. Thus there are a very limited >number of cave-diving sites, and of these, only a handful have reasonably >easy physical access combined with roomy underwater passages and occasional >'good' (ie. more than 2 metres) visibility. Most of these would require you >to be a fully-fledged caver yourself, and you would need to have the >necessary ropes & ladders and know how to use them safely (including >competence in Single Rope Techniques - abseiling & prussiking). As some of >the caves can be three miles from the road, several hundred feet deep, with >lengthy crawls and other obstacles, you would need to be able to muster a >team of cavers to carry your kit to the dive site. And of course you would >need to know where the cave entrance is! >Virtually all cave-diving sites are on private land. This means that >visitors must get the permission of the landowner before they visit. Some >landowners have installed physical barriers (eg. locked gates) to prevent >access, and may treat trespassers on their land to a close-up view of the >wrong end of a 12-bore! At some sites it may be that the landowner does not >care if people want to visit the cave (or indeed, they might prefer not to >know of such a visit) but most of them just like to be asked nicely for >permission to visit the caves. Ignoring such etiquette may result in the >cave being closed permanently - guaranteeing you the hostility of all the >cave divers in the UK! >Realistically, the only way to find out about the current access >arrangements, would be to ask local active members of the CDG. They will >also have knowledge & experience of the effects of the weather on the cave >in question, and whether the cave will be in flood, have good diving >conditions, what kind of visibility could be expected and what state the >guidelines are in, etc. >Most cave diving in the UK is carried out with the aim of exploring new >cave. Dives for the purpose of training/ testing of techniques & ancillary >equipment are also carried out. Occasionally, when conditions allow it, a >few divers will do tourist/ pleasure dives. The dives recorded in the Cave >Diving Group Newsletter reflect this pattern. >Most exploration is carried out by an individual or small group of divers >working together on a specific project, usually after researching geology/ >hydrology, etc. and previous dives done at the site - via the relevant Sump >Index, CDG Newsletters & caving club journals. The divers will subsequently >publish their findings in the CDG Newsletter, or send them to its Editor >for >his �secret file� (to be published at a later, more suitable date) in order >to share these with the caving community at large. It is also expected that >a survey (plan & section) of any new discovery should be published with the >report in the CDG Newsletter. Etiquette dictates that other divers will not >'pirate' someone else's project while work continues. It is therefore the >individual's responsibility to let it be known that a project is taking >place, and, equally, when work is complete, to let people know that it's >'open season' again at the site in question. >For the safety and convenience of others, any diver who finds the lines in >the sump in a different condition to those previously published, should >notify the changes to the Editor for inclusion in the Newsletter. >Now let�s look at gear & techniques. Many divers will have come across the >'Hogarthian'/ 'Doing It Right' philosophies promoted by the WKPP, GUE, >etc..... No argument - these principles are perfect for the large, deep, >easy-access springs, and the open water sites they dive. The value of the >techniques and gear configuration is reflected in the amazing explorations >they have carried out with few accidents. As the old saying goes - the >proof >of the pudding.... >Sadly, such gear configuration and techniques cannot be used in British >cave >diving. Let us explain why... >For a start, most sites in the UK are inaccessible to divers using >back-mounted bottles - quite simply, you would not fit through the cave >passages. Thus the long hose/ short hose debate, and where to put one�s >light, etc. does not arise. And you can leave the scooters at home! Here >streamlining is vital, and side-mounted tanks are de rigeur. >Although the water temperature is always cold (7 Celsius tops, 4 Celsius >normal), wetsuits are still commonly worn in many sumps. The bulk and >restricted movement of the drysuit for caving, and the likelihood of >overheating and damage, precludes its use in all but the easiest access >sites. Exceptions are the long deep sumps, a long way into a cave, when >ordinary caving gear is worn to get to dive site, with the drysuit being >carried and put on once the sump has been reached. >The streams in the caves are often heavily peat stained, and carry >substantial amounts of silt and organic debris - thus visibility of one to >two metres is considered quite reasonable/ normal, and three to four metres >plus is excellent (but sadly very rare). Higher water flow rates also mean >more wear and tear on the line, so 4mm thick is considered a minimum and >6mm >is not uncommon. We have even put half inch galvanised steel chain in one >cave, as the floods just kept eating 11mm caving rope! Consequently thicker >line means that line reels need to be fairly chunky/ heavy duty. The very >pretty aluminium and palstic enclosed reels you will see lots of �tekkie >diving� shops flogging would probably last about five minutes in the UK- >plus you couldn�t get any proper line on them. The lovely thin soft string >these reels come loaded with would be a menace in a UK sump. >Next, in the UK, we always wear helmets! We guarantee you that your head >gets bashed on the roof of the cave at least once during a dive, and in >some >of the smaller sumps, it will be constantly grinding against the rock roof. >It's also a handy thing to mount lights on - so you can see something >(albeit a brown glow and a line pressed against your mask) while you are >negotiating some of the less pleasant sumps. We normally wear two >twenty-watt lights, with 10 degree beams, plus two or more focusable >6-C-cell torches, on the helmet. Hand held lights and a bare head add up to >trouble over here ! Most UK cave divers will take a minimum of 5 different >light sources on a dive, and all of these will be helmet-mounted. >You are probably now beginning to realise why the Cave Diving Group members >may seem to discourage people from diving in caves in Britain. If the truth >be told, underwater caves in the UK can rarely be described as a pleasant >environment. Sure, you can get �job satisfaction� from a well-executed >dive, >but do not expect to see what you see in the photos in glossy magazines... >British sumps have a grim reputation. In response to the Brits being >impressed by his pushes, and the distances he explored - Olivier Isler once >commented: "Here in the Dordogne, the passages are large, the water is warm >& clear, so laying line here is easy. But I know in England the caves are >very small, the water is very cold, and you cannot see anything. Those are >very difficult & dangerous conditions." That from a man who has broken >World >cave-diving records. >So what else is different about cave diving in Britain? >Perhaps even more strange than the gear configuration, for many open-water >divers, is that you can forget about having a 'buddy' underwater in British >caves. Most cave divers in Britain believe that being solo in a sump is >safer for any number of reasons - such as:- > There's no-one to get physically jammed in the passage behind you >(thereby blocking your exit); > There's no-one behind you who may get tangled in the line, and >have >to cut it - leaving you with no guide home; > There's no-one to accidentally disturb your 'out tags' at line >junctions (e.g. in one cave there are 10 branch lines off the main line in >the first 500m of passage); > There's no-one to cause silt problems (but yourself); > There's no chance of being called upon to share air - in small >passages thisThere's nothing to get confused about - communication in sumps >varies from the difficult to the impossible would be impossible anyway; > There's no-one to provide you with a false sense of security; > There's no-one to worry about, but yourself - you can concentrate >on your own safety. >This all presumes, of course, that your gear is suitable and properly cared >for, and that you are fully proficient in all the techniques required. >But if this were not the case, you would be liability to yourself and any >buddy anyway. >A 'buddy' out of the water is, however, nice to have along - for the >company >(caves are lonely places), to help each other kit up, as a safety measure >against accidents such as slips, falls, etc. in the passages approaching >and >beyond the sumps, and to compare notes with afterwards regarding the nature >of the cave and possible leads. Similarly there may be odd occasions (e.g. >digging/ drilling & scaffolding) where you may be better working together >underwater. >One of the best things about bumping into other cave divers at a dive site >is to have a good look at their kit. What lights/ bottles/ harness/ reel do >they use? Why do they do what they do that way? >The same diver may well use different configurations at different dive >sites, and even on different occasions at the same site, depending on the >purpose of the dive. And they may well have come up with a wizard idea >which >they would love to share with you.... >Adaptability and imagination are the hallmarks of cave divers. There are a >surprising number of items of home-made kit in use - generally more robust/ >heavy-duty or cheap/ disposable than open water gear. Caves constitute a >very harsh environment, and thus equipment does not remain pristine for >long >- just notice most bottles, harnesses, helmets & lights in use. Sometimes >'normal' gear may be used, but adapted in particular way. We are also lucky >that we normally dive only in freshwater. This means that electric contacts >can be left open to the water - so you will see lights made diochroic units >& lawn mower plugs combined with leftover bits from the plumbers merchants >- >and also mild steel bits & pieces hardly affected by rust. Most people will >be more than happy to explain their gear, and the hows, whys, and >wherefores >of why they use it. Put ten cave divers in a room with their kit, and >everyone will have his own way of doing it - each method refined to suit >it's user. Of course, they will all take the Mickey out of the other nine, >but then they will sneak off to try out someone else's ideas! >What they will not do, however, is to ram it down your throat and tell you >that theirs is the only way to do it! What is right is what is right for >you, to keep you safe and happy & get you back home in one piece. Just >think >carefully, first, about what you are doing, before you do it. >Jammed by your backmounts in a tiny passage, banging your (unhelmeted) head >against the roof, while trying to untie your handheld light & 17ft long >hose >from a 2mm white nylon line that's spilled off your beautifully engineered >(but broken) plexiglass line reel, it will be small comfort to know that >you >are fully compliant with some well-publicised philosophy and gear >configuration that was developed for use in very different conditions. >Think of the Eastern European divers who refused to be beaten by a low mud >filled sump, and finished up putting their bottles into a streamlined >container made from two child's plastic sledges - so they could push it >forward through the ooze in front of them, like a snow plough. What they >did >was right for them. >In the same way, CDG members are often seen to abandon their sidemounted >tanks when they are away on holiday, playing in the big, clear springs in >France, etc. - simply because it's easier carrying big bottles from the car >to the water on a back mount. Horses for courses. >Every member of the CDG has many years of 'dry' caving behind them before >they got to dive in a sump. They were not taught how to cave dive. With a >little help and advice from their friends, looking at how others go about >it, they learn. Watching, asking - but most importantly by THINKING - and >then cautiously trying out what they�ve learned for themselves. >This is the approach that we have taken for the last 60-odd years. That�s >why we had line laying techniques, good lights, gas management rules, >rebreathers and multiple redundancy years ago. But not content with that, >the innovations continued with mixed gasses, DPV�s, and gear adaptations by >the bucket load. We sat, we thought, then we went out & did - cautiously. >And we still do the same before & after every dive - always on the lookout >for new ideas, techniques, equipment which we can use, or adapt, and >incorporate into what we do. Then we share our experience with others. >This is where the CDG helps. They are there to disseminate information and >to try to share experience among cave divers in the UK. The CDG is a >non-profit making group of individuals with one common interest - the >exploration of caves. They do not run formal courses - training is very >much >on an ad hoc basis, with no commercial considerations whatsoever. To pass >through the grades to 'Qualified Diver' status may take years. >There are no shortcuts, and no amount of money can buy you the amount of >experience needed. >There are no 'ready made' courses which churn out 'Qualified' cave divers >and if some people seem to imply that their course will turn you into an >experienced UK cave diver - don't believe them! - there is no substitute >for >experience. Examining the accidents that have taken place in British sumps >shows that the vast majority of people drown within metres of an airspace, >and that they usually have limited experience. >So by all means go on that cavern or cave-diving course somewhere nice & >sunny abroad - it will hopefully give you an enjoyable and interesting >experience. Almost certainly the techniques you will learn, and the >discussions re: gear configuration, etc. will make you a better diver. But >they are a world apart from what you would normally expect to find in a >British sump. >In the CDG's 'Qualified Diver' test, the candidate will be taken to a muddy >quarry and will be expected to lay line, navigate, survey, as well as >operate normally underwater like any other diver (i.e. breathing & ear >clearing, controlling buoyancy, and maintaining air margins). Additionally >the diver will be given some manual dexterity test, and at various stages >he >will have his mask dislodged/ removed, usually after the examiner has >quietly turned off the candidate's reserve set, immediately followed by the >set he is using, whilst tangling him up in the line! If the diver copes >with >all this without approaching the incident pit, and can later satisfy the >examiner with his technical knowledge, then he can be put forward for >qualification. Even then, the candidate must be elected to 'Qualified >Diver' >status by his peers in the CDG. >And, sadly, this is still no guarantee of invulnerability in the sump. >There >are few more frightening experiences than being lost in a sump, or >physically stuck, or having a catastrophic gear failure. Air may be only >metres away - or kilometres - but if you can't reach it when you need >it..... >To dive safely in the caves of Britain requires careful thought and >planning, a thorough understanding of caves & caving, training, the right >equipment, and the right mental attitude. >So let's close with a few words from the CDG Manual :- >'Cave diving calls for complete self-reliance and independence of >judgement, >which does not imply ignoring the experience of others��the divers >responsibility for safety is his and his alone, if he delegates >responsibility for any part of the operation, he does so at his own >risk�..he should examine his motivation for cave diving��.he must to a >great >extent live cave diving as well as practice it�..this is a hard doctrine to >accept, nevertheless it is one born of experience.' > > > > >From: "George Irvine" <girvine@be*.ne*> > >Reply-To: <trey@ne*.co*> > >To: "Dominic Humphries" <diverdominic@ho*.co*>, > ><techdiver@aquanaut.com> > >Subject: RE: Helmets for cave diving. What's the deal? > >Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 06:39:58 -0500 > > > >Just for laughs, tell us all why the helmets are used. This should be a > >keeper. > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Dominic Humphries [mailto:diverdominic@ho*.co*] > >Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 6:21 AM > >To: techdiver@aquanaut.com > >Subject: Re: Helmets for cave diving. What's the deal? > > > > > >The cave-diving group here in the UK always use helmets, you may find >this > >article on their equipment worth a look: > >http://www.cavedivinggroup.org.uk/Essays/Scoff.html > >Regards > >Dominic > > > > >From: Simon L Hartley <shartley@sc*.ed*.au*> > > >To: techdiver@aquanaut.com > > >Subject: Helmets for cave diving. What's the deal? > > >Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 16:08:17 +1100 > > > > > >While we're on the subject of genuine risk and paranoia. I'm doing a > > >Cavern/Sinkhole course in a few weeks. One thing I've noticed is that > >many > > >of the pictures of cave divers in Aus show them using helmets. I don't > > >know this for sure but the use of helmets seems a likely topic to arise > >and > > >I may even be required to wear one (for at least some parts of a cavern > > >course (not sure)). If this is going to be a problem I'd like to know > >about > > >it. From what I've seen the WKPP don't use helmets (I assume they are > >not > > >DIR and may not fit well with the system). What is the deal? I can > >think > > >of a couple of possible problems right away including... > > > > > >1) May interfere with deployment of long hose. > > > > > >2) Obvious problems with helmet/head mounted lights (blind everyone you > > >look at, can't hide light to look for buddies, can't signal with >lights, > > >light heads and cables (maybe canisters too) are behind your head so > >can't > > >deal with problems). > > > > > >.....yet I imagine for abseiling into a cavern and in the dry parts >under > > >ledges, etc there is the risk of rocks/equipment falling on you. >What's > > >the deal? > > > > > >Any help appreciated. > > > > > >Cheers, > > > > > >Simon > > > > > >Simon L Hartley > > >EnvSM Website Coordinator\First Year Course Coordinator > > >Associate Lecturer > > >School of Environmental Science and Management > > >Southern Cross University > > >P.O. Box 157 > > >Lismore NSW, Australia 2480 > > >Ph: (02) 66203251 or (61 66) 203 251 > > >Fax:(02) 66212669 > > >E-mail: shartley@sc*.ed*.au* > > > > > >http://www.scu.edu.au/schools/esm/staff/pages/shartley/ > > > > > >http://www.scu.edu.au/schools/esm/ > > >-- > > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to >`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > >http://www.hotmail.com > > > >-- > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > >-- >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > _________________________________________________________________ Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. 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