Cobb, do really think I agree with all that bullshit gear those guys wear 
in those mags. Why don't you just tell everyone how I wear my gear and put 
all the bullshit about me to rest.


At 01:14 PM 12/22/01 +0000, Jim Cobb wrote:
>If you all want to see how these people were equipped when they died just 
>take a look at the latest Immersed magazine.
>
>The entire issue is devoted to stuporwings, steel stages, metal-to-metal 
>connections, butt-mounting, pony bottles, the whole nightmarish ensemble 
>which has contributed mightly to the "death list".
>
>How a magazine devoted to the sport of "technical" diving could publish 
>such tripe is beyond comprehension. Well, maybe not, seeing how half the 
>ads are OMS and a bunch of the other usual suspects.
>
>But considering how Chowdbury seems to be capitalizing off of divers 
>deaths (Last Dive) I guess he figures that promoting the "dark side" will 
>just give him material for his next morbid book.
>
>Christ, magazines are a bad as lawyers, if there's a buck in it...
>
>    Jim
>
><<Learn about Trimix at www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/>>
> >JT, it is pretty obvious that bondage wings are complete nonsense, and Doug
> >Chapman and others have covered a lot of the reasons why. I do not know why
> >you have to defend idiocy that you yourself do not believe in, and then do
> >so with a malpropic, nonsensensical  , illiterate stream of consciousness
> >from an obvious moron. There are not may people stupid enough to have
> >written that, so I will personally bet it  was Mouth.
> >
> >The fact is that the video ( which the dive shop owner tried to destroy but
> >one of his disgruntled employees copied it and gave it to the lawyers),
> >showed that the guy could not control his buoyancy. However, who knows if it
> >was the bondage wings, the "steal" ( what a moron) tanks with the wetsuit,
> >or just that fact that the guy had no business doing the dive in the first
> >place.
> >
> >Maybe you should ask mouth about the guy who died in the rock quarry in PA
> >by jumping in with "steal" stages and bondage wings, and could not get them
> >to hold enough gas due to the bungees triggering the OPV. Maybe you should
> >ask me about when I tried to lift Jane Ornstean from the ocean floor with
> >her bondage wings and the same things happened.
> >
> >Chapman just said he got asked to test the wings in that case, he made no
> >other comments about the situation. Notice that whoever wrote that slop was
> >so happy about only paying 450 grand. No mention of the three dead, the wife
> >of the cop who died and could not collect insurance due to no body and could
> >not pay her bills (
> >until I had to go to court as an expert witness to why he was dead), or the
> >family of the guy from New York who died in that dive, and IANTD "class".
> >
> >I think two things are clear here from your post: 1) whoever wrote that is
> >an illiterate moron, and 2) whoever wrote this is an unscrupulous scum bag
> >of the lowest order. The fact is that nothing about what happened that day
> >has been corrected, and nothing about what happened to Jane Ornstein has
> >been corrected.
> >
> >Aligning your self with known assholes and scumbags is not making you look
> >too good, especially when none of that has anything to do with the topic at
> >hand, and none of it has anything to do with how you practice this sport or
> >with what you know to be correct.
> >
> >The rest of that thing is a complete fabrication, with none of the facts
> >that need to be told about that accident. I did 23 dives at my own cost on
> >weekends when I could have been doing something a lot more fun and took the
> >two per day , back to back 250 foot drift dives offshore in howling current
> >and bad weather to try to find those guys. I had to go to court and see the
> >cop's wife crying face. You are wrong here for perpetuating mouth's lies and
> >dangerous stupidity. Mount is scum, and he has proven it over and over. Let
> >the asshole make his own posts to this list and I will rip him to pieces
> >with what was wrong there and continues to be wrong in his organization.
> >Anyone can take OMS apart - you don't have to be much more than a Downes
> >Syndrome case to see through that crap
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*]
> >Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 11:08 PM
> >To: dougch@ea*.ne*; techdiver@aquanaut.com
> >Subject: Re: Bondage wings inflation.
> >
> >
> >Doug
> >The lawsuit you refer to, was it the WPB 3 accident in FL . If so can you
> >confirm the statement below that was emailed to me in private about the
> >court case. How accurate is the info below.
> >
> > >The triple death in WPB well the instructor is an or was an excellent
> >instructor and unlike what xxxxx states he did not smoke and he was not a
> >drunk. He was a retired sgt Major from SP and had 4 tours of duty in Nam
> >He went through swim school with the USN in February. He ran the US Army
> >swim Scholl for a few years.
> >He swim 2 miles 3 times a week up until the day he died and he ran for 20
> >minutes on the non swimming days .That comes from years of combat swims
> >He was an excellent diver and an excellent instructor.
> >xx was the expert witness against him or his estate the testimony is
> >interesting. Unfortunately the insurance company settled for 450,00 instead
> >of going to court as there is no doubt in the lawyers mind and evidently in
> >their that the case would have been beaten.xxxxxx per se had been dropped
> >out of the case 3 months earlier and the suit then was against xxxx estate,
> >xxxxxxxxxxxxx, The boat Captain and the diver who tried to assist in the
> >rescue until xxxxx sent him up because he was low on gas. . The suit had
> >been for 9 million originally. The offer for 450,00 was made as that was
> >the amount the insurance company figured they would spend in appeals once
> >the plaintiffs lost the case. And that offer was put on the table at
> >mediation called for by the plaintiffs attorneys the day before the case.
> >The attorney at hat time had only offered them 50 thousand (basically the
> >cost of a trial) So at 4 PM the offer was made and it was to be taken off
> >the table at 8:30 PM at 7:50 xxxxx called and they took it.
> >They then went to court against the diver (xxxxxxxx) who survived with xx
> >testifying against him. Had they won this case that would have meant
> >whatever you do do not try and rescue a diver. Fortunately the jury found
> >that xxxxxxx efforts only helped the situation not contribute to it as xx
> >was implying. Then the judge threw out the suit in regard to xxxxxxx the
> >3rd diver who died. xxxxxx was a close friend of xxxx but when they had a
> >problem he had left and went up to deco on his lift bag. The last time
> >xxxxxx saw him he was on his lift bag. He may have gone back down to assist
> >or he may have had a problem of his own. He was not a student or anything
> >that nature. He had not been with them on the three times they got up to
> >150 and then sank back to 200 plus before xxxxx left.
> >As far as config there was a complete video of xxxxx xxxxxx taking the same
> >equipment that was used by the deceased and ascending just using his BC.
> >Then they have a scene with xxxxx ascending with four steal stages just to
> >show that the BC would lift that much more.
> >Now I understand that they are making an appeal against the boat captain
> >because he has no insurance so will not have a lawyer to represent him. No
> >they will not get any real money but they can set a example they could use
> >in future cases against boat captains in similar situations. or any
> >accidents for that matter.
> >Thought you might want to know more about what happened than what is stated
> >on tech diver
> >
> >END OF EMAIL
> >
> >At 07:26 PM 12/18/01 -0500, Doug Chapman wrote:
> >>It is possible to orally inflate bondage wings at depth. I participated in
> >>gathering evidence for a lawsuit that involved bondage wings where the
> >>plaintiff claimed it was not possible to orally inflate the wings and get
> >>sufficient buoyancy to become positive. So we took the dead man's gear, a
> >>wetsuit, 15 or 20lbs of extra weight, two stages (if I recall I believe one
> >>was steel), and an extra steel 72 stage which I carried and passd to the
> >>diver at depth and went on a 230ft dive in freshwater (the fatality
> >occurred
> >>in seawater which would have been even more buoyant).
> >>
> >>We documented on video at depth that the diver could achieve buoyancy using
> >>the power inflator and that after the wings were completely dumped they
> >could
> >>be orally inflated to achieve positive buoyancy (several times). The
> >>demonstration proved the claim that the particular BC in question could not
> >>provide the lift was false. End of my involvement (as a safety diver during
> >>the exercise).
> >>
> >>Now if anyone would ask me if I would recommend a bondage type wing I would
> >>immediately say no. I tell people to cut off the cords on the wings they
> >have
> >>but that still doesn't get rid of the baloon size some of these wings are
> >>(e.g. 100# of lift). As mentioned by several people on this list, the
> >bungeed
> >>(bungled?) wings are not desirable IMHO because:
> >>
> >>1) The ability to precisely control venting is compromised by the positive
> >>overpressure in the wing created by the elastic cords. The pressure
> >anywhere
> >>in a submerged air bubble (the bladder in your BC) is equal to the
> >>hydrostatic pressure at the lowest (deepest) point on the bladder minus the
> >>weight of the air to the point in the bladder in question. This small
> >>pressure offset created by hydrostatic pressure is more than sufficient to
> >>properly vent a BC, with a degree of fine control.
> >>
> >>2) A puncture in the wing may be catastropic as the cords tend to
> >completely
> >>squeeze the wing in size.  in a BC that has no bungees, an air bubble can
> >be
> >>trapped within the wing and still offer flotation.
> >>
> >>3) The bungeed wings are typically monsterous in size and the drag created
> >by
> >>the crumpled mess can be prohibitive.
> >>
> >>4) The location of a bungeed wing (maybe unless it is fully inflated), on a
> >>horizontal diver, causes the center of buoyancy of the diver (with tanks)
> >to
> >>be farther below the center of gravity of the diver (with tanks) and
> >>therefore the stability of the diver is reduced. Note if you observe
> >>non-bungeed wings you will notice the two wing tips will be alongside the
> >>tanks. This is where the bulk of your nominal "in-flight" buoyancy should
> >be
> >>from a stability viewpoint. If you are weighted properly this volume will
> >be
> >>minimized offering sufficient reserve buoyancy if needed.
> >>
> >>5) I've had people tell me you need 100#s of lift in a BC in the event your
> >>buddy loses buoyancy and needs help - therefore you should use bungees to
> >>consolidate the large wing. To that I say bullshit. Of course you and your
> >>partner should be weighted correctly.
> >>
> >>Yes you can inflate a bungeed wing orally and you can get sufficient
> >buoyancy
> >>in most cases, but the negatives far outweigh and perceived advantages
> >(which
> >>I can't think of) so why bother with something inferior?
> >>
> >>Think Occum's razor!!!
> >>
> >>
> >>IMHO,
> >>Doug
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> >>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> >
> >"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the
> >water"
> >
> >Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
> >  Web Site  http://www.capt-jt.com/
> >Email     captjt@mi*.co*
> >
> >
> >--
> >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> >
> >
> >--
> >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> >
> >

"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the 
water"

Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
  Web Site  http://www.capt-jt.com/
Email     captjt@mi*.co*


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