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Chuckie, there is nothing to lie about. All of the points I made were true, and who cares which one killed him? The fact is you tried to pin it on me and the WKPP, which is wrong. In the process, you took a few more shots at me that you don't have the resume to fire. If you want to believe that the guy filled a bottle with helium and then invited his friends to watch him kill himself, go ahead and believe it. Even I do not think the guy was this stupid, but I do think he could have written he instead of o2, he was that sloppy, or he could have made a 50/50 (like some of our guys use) with he and o2 and not finished the label or analyzed it, again he was that sloppy. The points you hammered home to me are that the guy was not doing things our way when not with us, and that this is the MO of him, you , his and your friends and "mentors" in and out of the WKPP. That stopped yesterday. The other point you make to me is that while most of my guys are smart enough to sit out when sick, this one was not, and apparently you are telling me that some of my guys knew this and kept it from me. You also made me realize that there are those, again your buddies, who cover for each other and try to keep me in the dark about the continuous clusterfuck they have when the dive together. Sorry, did not work. JJ and I can tell by what gets done or does not get done who screws up, but you made me realize that I do not need to give any weight to their opinions ever again. You are also telling me that the people you hang around with are the "think for themselves' crowd. They will not be doing anything in the WKPP. They can think freely with you at Ginnie Springs. The only thing you have succeeded in doing otherwise is embarrass your buddies in the WKPP, whose opinions are now garbage and who will never be able to either bring another person in or have any say in who is ok to dive. I am sick of hearing from losers like you how there are "think for themselves" people in WKPP who believe I am full of shit and they know it all. Funny, this only seems to come up when there is an accident or death to talk about, and funny it is always the guys who do just what you said, "think for themselves" , that have the accidents. Funny, there is always some breaking of my rules blatantly evident in every one of these accidents. You have done one good thing here: you got me off my ass to where I will resume the role of personally signing off on anyone who gas dives in the WKPP or is given access to any of our sites. I will then be able to remove those who think they way you do, and then we will not be hearing bs from the reject, losers, and other strokes who have never done anything or contributed anything. Werner is also good at this - he shot you the first time he tried to dive with you and you pulled the biggest stroke move in diving. However, I will be the only one doing it now because I really want to get the liars and pretenders away before one of them kills himself on my watch instead of at Jackson while "thinking freely" and diving with strokes like you. I can and will spot all of them. Chuck, you do not have a clue what it takes to do what we do, you never got any taste of the real think. You sure thought you did, like every other stroke who is motivated by trying to prove something. Your buddies are just as bad - they don't have a clue why I do what I do or what the basis of DIR is, and they prove it constantly by "thinking for themselves" and misrepresenting the system. That is why so many people think the system is bullshit. Nobody who gets it from me thinks that. There is nobody in the WKPP who has done what I do that thinks any differently than I do. That is because you can't pull it off their way. Real simple. You will never see or know that. -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Noe [mailto:chucknoe@ca*.co*] Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 7:32 PM To: techdiver@aquanaut.com; trey@ne*.co* Cc: Houston Cave Divers Subject: Re: DIR Fatalities Again, this is not about George Irvine. If Mother Theresa herself had lied about Jonathan's death, I would have brought attention to it. I'm not bitter about my past dealings with you or the WKPP. I wish you continued success and the best of luck. You have all made some great accomplishments in equipment, technique, exploration, and physiology. Also note that nowhere in any of my posts did I use the term "free thinking". Those were your words. What I said in reference to your team was that "Luckily most of them are extremely intelligent and competent individuals who think for themselves". If that offends you then so be it. Feel free to have the last word. As we say in Texas, "the proof is in the pudding". Chuck Trey wrote: > Chuck, you are ridiculous. The guy did everything he possible could wrong > and it really makes no difference what killed him. You just want to come > after me and you did so at the expense of making your supposed "friend" look > like a complete idiot or suicidal (you called it a "free thinking"). Well, > big time , by your measure of "free thinking" , he is dead. You have no clue > what DIR is and you have no clue what we do. No DIR or WKPP diver would own > a rigged unmarked stage bottle. > > To imply that that I do not run a tight ship and that I do not have the best > safety record in diving is more of your petty nonsense. You wanted to make > out like this was a WKPP accident to take a shot at me. You are not going to > get away with that, and you only proved me more right. The guy was seriously > sick, he was seriously stupid for diving at all, and he revealed his true > nature with the bottle business and the "work up" business. ( Only a stroke > like you would make a comment about "working up to deeper dives" - you both > are/were a pair of morons.) > > Gol was one of the people who thought I was full of shit and that he did not > need to do things my way. Well, now we see how smart that was. He was one of > the "free thinkers" that you mention who pay lip service to me , like you > tried to do before I kicked you out, in order to dive. You did not fool me, > he did not fool me. > > I will personally check out all WKPP gas divers from now on , and those I > have not dived with me and been cleared by me will not dive until I have > time to dive with them. They will undergo an interview by me in which I will > see if they get it or not. They can thank you for that, for calling to my > attention that this problem exists. I will get rid of anyone who thinks the > way you do, anyone caught not doing things our way on or off the field, and > that includes diving with strokes (like you , for instance). > > I think that with my personal hand in it, that the Gols an Chuck Noes will > be weeded out fast. JJ has no time for it and his take is get rid of anyone > who is not one of our top pros. That is the take of the rest of the top > guys. I know from having taught our key guys years ago that if I do not pass > on what I know and teach, there will be no future WKPP divers. By not being > involved myself, I end up with Gols and Noes who are useless to me. > > Chuck, why don't you throw the rest of your buddies under the bus so I can > speed up the process? I'd love to get rid of the dead wood and bring on some > of the promising guys I see in our group. Go ahead, or let me find out by > interviewing them. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck Noe [mailto:chucknoe@ca*.co*] > Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 9:15 AM > To: techdiver@aquanaut.com > Cc: Houston Cave Divers; trey@ne*.co* > Subject: Re: DIR Fatalities > > To All, > > I have stated the facts. That was my only objective. > > This is not about George Irvine. This is not about the WKPP. This is not > about > DIR principles; I believe in DIR. > > Jonathan Gol died doing what he loved as a result of a tragic mistake. He > breathed off an improperly marked bottle which contained 100% helium. His > death > was the result of complacency, even though he strived for safety. That is > the > message. > > Some of you will believe me, some of you will not. That is your decision. > Hopefully the NEDU will make the gas analysis of Jonathan's deco bottle > public > soon and any doubt will be erased. Those who were close to Jonathan already > know > the results. > > Chuck > > Trey wrote: > > > Chuck, let me preface this by saying that you are a typical chip on the > > shoulder, trying to prove something, alligator mouthed little TDI > instructor > > who resents me and has been booted out of the WKPP for you incompetence, > > being a total stroke , and for being an ass in every situation in which > you > > were placed. You embarrassed the people who gave you a shot. > > > > You continue to try to embarrass them and to discredit them and now you > are > > trying to make Gol look like more of an idiot that he probably was. Either > > that , or you are trying to tell me that Gol committed suicide by filling > a > > small , unmarked bottle with helium and breathing it after doing a short > > dive. Why would the guy bring friends along to kill himself? > > > > The fact is that Gol was just a sloppy, disorganized, last minute operator > > whom I had to repeatedly correct on many subjects. I finally had enough > and > > was no longer using him for gas diving . In fact there are several others > > who are in that same boat now - must be the "think for themselves" people > > you mentioned. Neither you nor any of your resentful little buddies can > come > > up with any logical reason why what I practice and require can be done in > > any better way - just try it. Your first argument with me was about deep > air > > and how you can "handle" it. The fact is you could not handle anything, > and > > your thinking on that subject is merely a reflection of your whole persona > > and performance. > > > > Gol had a form of encephalitis that is usually only found with HIV or AIDS > > patients and he had it so bad that his brain swelled and he had to be > > hospitalized for a week with seizures. He was still being treated for all > of > > this, and was in no condition to dive. I was not planning on using him > even > > if he had been "cured". I can smell a problem a mile away and so far my > > instincts have saved me from losing my permits. I would rather have little > > strokes like you hating me than not be able to dive my caves. > > > > In addition, Gol made it worse by diving outside of the WKPP ( something > we > > strongly discourage - those doing it do not get scheduled by me nor do I > > give them access to the other sites), by diving with a non-WKPP diver ( > not > > that the guy could have saved him, but that a WKPP diver would not have > let > > the dive happen), and by diving an improperly marked bottle ( which would > > never be allowed in the WKPP or by a WKPP diver). Is that what you mean by > > free thinking, little chuckie? > > > > The fact is Gol is not my problem. The fact is that those who recommended > > him and covered for him might as well quit now, as they are erased from my > > book. The fact is that anyone else who is caught doing things other than > DIR > > as prescribed by me outside of the WKPP will not dive in the WKPP. Anyone > > caught diving with strokes, like you , will not dive in the WKPP. That is > > the unanimous thinking of the people who run WKPP, just as their unanimous > > thinking was to get rid of you . > > > > The other fact here, and the point that Dr Black brought up, is that this > > death is not a "DIR" or WKPP situation. It is a violation of all the rules > > of DIR and the WKPP. It would not have happened or happened that way on my > > watch, and now I have tightened the screening so much that the only guys > who > > will dive are going to be my pros and the guys who have what it takes to > be > > pros that we have identified. We have rearranged the roster and we did so > a > > week before Gol killed himself. > > > > Where I strongly agree with Dr Black and others who hate DIR and the WKPP > is > > confirmed by your comment about "free thinkers" : i.e. that being or > > pretending to be DIR obviously does not preclude somebody from being a > total > > stroke or from doing stupid things, and being in the WKPP does not mean > one > > has any qualifications or ability what so ever, and many of my "team" > prove > > that , like Gol did, on a regular basis. Where I empathize with Dr Black > > strongly is in the fact that 99% of the "DIR" divers out there and about > 50% > > of the WKPP have no clue what DIR is or what they are talking about, are > not > > living up to the standards of DIR in any way, and are in the "can't walk > and > > chew gum" category. These "free thinkers" as you call them, chuckie, are > the > > morons who pervert DIR and come across as idiots. These people make no > sense > > to a guy like Dr Black or anyone else for that matter, and it is no wonder > > that Black thinks we are full of shit. Taken as a group, we are. > > > > However, if I personally showed Black the real DIR, he would be 100% in > > agreement. That goes for anyone who can think clearly. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Chuck Noe [mailto:chucknoe@ca*.co*] > > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 7:42 PM > > To: George Irvine > > Cc: Techdiver; Houston Cave Divers > > Subject: Re: DIR Fatalities > > > > George Irvine wrote: > > > > > This is complete bullshit. > > > > It certainly is. > > > > > The fact is that you, Chuck Noe, were booted off > > > the WKPP by me because you are a complete and total stroke. > > > > ...and the fact that I stood up and identified you as "the Emperor Who > Wore > > No > > Clothes" two years ago. Don't you think I would have kept my mouth shut if > I > > had > > ambitions of diving in the WKPP? > > > > > It's well known in WKPP that anybody caught diving with you will be > booted > > > off the team. > > > > So what? > > > > > You are a complete liar. > > > > You just dig yourself a deeper hole calling ME a liar when everybody knows > > you > > are so full of shit. > > > > > 1.) We have the coroner's report. > > > > The FAMILY has the medical information. YOU do not! The ME report > > specifically > > rules out any major brain hemorrhage. > > > > > 2.) I am the guy who schedules divers and I DID NOT have Gol scheduled > > for > > > any dives in the approaching dive weekend. > > > > Then you should have mentioned that to Casey. > > > > > If Gol was planning on attending one of our events, he would not have > > been in > > > the water. > > > > Jonathan's mentor (and your training director) Scott Landon told the > family > > before the funeral that "Jonathan was not restricted from diving with the > > team > > and that they didn't even know that he had been ill". > > > > > 3.) Gol was told by his doctor not to dive following the last round of > > > seizures. > > > > Jonathan's best friend, Dr. Harry Sokolow, told me, Landon, and the family > > that > > Jonathan had been cleared to dive following his earlier illness. > > > > > 4.) The bottle had a label on it marked 500psi He, not 100% Helium > > > > Wrong. There are pictures of this label George. And the equipment was > > inspected > > by my dive buddy as well as your medical director. Check with the Jackson > > County > > Sheriff's Department if you like; they all know the truth. > > > > > 5.) The bottle had no gas in it at all after the dive > > > > That is true. The remaining pressure in the bottle escaped during his > > recovery. > > But the ambient pressure remained and has been analyzed by the Navy. It > had > > a > > high percentage of helium in the residual gas, even though the valve was > > loose > > in the bottle. > > > > > 6.) Even an idiot like you knows that if you were breathing pure > helium, > > > you'd never be able to breathe a full 500 psi in shallow water before > you > > > went out. > > > > True again. But nobody said he consumed the entire 500 psi. It was lost > > during > > his recovery. Several people witnessed this. > > > > > 7.) Furthermore, if he had been diving with WKPP divers, under WKPP > > rules, > > > none of these uncertainties would be possible anyway and his buddy would > > not > > > have let him dive in the first place. > > > > I cannot speculate on what would have happened had he been diving with a > > team > > member as a buddy. Every person did everything they could to save > Jonathan's > > life. There were other team members on-site though. > > > > > 8.) He told the guy he was diving with that he was "feeling better" and > > > wanted to try diving. > > > > I'm not sure Jonathan was in any physical condition to attempt a big dive > > but he > > was slowly progressing back into the swing of things. He had completed > > shallow > > dives the weekend before and was moving up to deeper (albeit easy) dives > at > > JB. > > His plan was to dive Wakulla two weeks after that if everything went well. > > Jonathan had been very sick earlier in the Spring but had been out of the > > hospital for several weeks and was indeed feeling better. Still I'm not > sure > > that he was ready to do any big dives but his medical condition is not > what > > killed him. > > > > > Chuck, do you know how I maintain the safety record of the WKPP? By > > keeping > > > people like you away from it. > > > > You never saw me breathing the long hose in my van at the parking lot at > > Wakulla. You can't say that about several others though. > > > > > You're just like every other lying stroke out there - you take hearsay, > > > bullshit, half-truths and incomplete information and then try to assign > > some > > > value to it. > > > > Jonathan's friends and family don't give a damn about your ego. You have > no > > accurate information. You only have a desire to protect your own ass. What > I > > don't understand is "why you feel so threatened". Jonathan made a mistake > > and he > > paid for it with his life. This could happen to any member of your team. > > Your > > unwillingness to admit that your team members are human does them a huge > > disservice. Luckily most of them are extremely intelligent and competent > > individuals who think for themselves in spite of your rantings. > > > > > And Chuck, it wasn't just me who kicked you off the team, it > > > was the whole team. > > > > That's pitiful. Why don't you just let all this pass? I don't even expect > a > > retraction or apology from you. > > > > Chuck > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Chuck Noe [mailto:chucknoe@ca*.co*] > > > Sent: Friday, December 12, 3502 12:43 AM > > > Subject: Re: DIR Fatalities > > > > > > To: techdiver@aquanaut.com > > > > > > Okay George; I've about had it with your fucking lies. > > > > > > For the record Jonathan Gol did not die of any > > > > > > "massive brain hemmorage" or any other medical > > > > > > condition. > > > > > > Your assertion that Jonathan was "on leave" from > > > > > > diving with the team is also crap. I have first-hand > > > > > > knowledge that he was asked to and was planning on > > > > > > participating in your approaching dive weekend. > > > > > > Also his best friend and personal physician told > > > > > > me in person that Jonathan had been "released" to > > > > > > resume diving by the specialists who had treated > > > > > > him earlier in the summer for his ailments. > > > > > > All that crap you posted on Quest was a bunch of > > > > > > lies designed to protect you and your project > > > > > > from criticism. > > > > > > Everybody in the know realizes that Jonathan's death > > > > > > was brought on from breathing 100% HELIUM while at > > > > > > his deco stop and we are just awaiting the final > > > > > > test results from the NEDU before discussing this > > > > > > publicly. > > > > > > Jonathan was a dear friend of mine who made the terrible > > > > > > mistake of temporarily transferring helium into an > > > > > > aluminum 40. He went so far as to marking the bottle > > > > > > "100% HE / 500 psi" with duct tape. But he ignored > > > > > > the markings while on this fatal dive. These are all > > > > > > facts which can be confirmed by the Jackson County > > > > > > Sheriff's Department. > > > > > > What is even sadder is that YOU feel compelled to lie > > > > > > about all of this in order to protect your "perfect safety > > > > > > record" which we ALL know is a joke. I can admire your > > > > > > team accomplishments and the strides that have been made, > > > > > > but to say that there haven't been bumps along the way > > > > > > is senseless. > > > > > > Jonathan was a fine human being and a skilled and > > > > > > accomplished diver. Why can you not admit that he made > > > > > > a mistake and let us all learn from that? > > > > > > Chuck Noe > > > -- > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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