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Hi George, Let me introduce myself first as a recent observer on the list and a recreational/ weekend tech diver who dives in the warm waters of the Philippines, run times rarely exceeding 2hrs. I was very interested in following the thread on oxygen management during deco and the descriptions of your pioneering profiles as you mentioned. I had a quick surf through the WKPP site but could not really find profiles as such. I saw your standard mixes and summary dive reports giving depth and bottom time. Please could you point me in the right direction to where I could find your deco profiles/ running times. I am particularly interested in your shorter dives! Say, less than 330 ft and bottom times in the order of 30 mins. For example looking at the dive reports for 2000: Feb 5 Sally Ward Spring 245 ft for 25 mins or June 23 Wakulla 280ft for 25 mins. Thanks in advance, Osman Tosun. --- Wendell Grogan <wgrogan@dc*.ne*> wrote: > Trey, > A minor point, but important. > On breaks from O2, the closer you get to real > normoxia (i.e.. 21%) the > better. In fact, if you get down to the 17% range, > there is some > evidence that is even better. Air, at 20 feet is > 0.34 ppO2. Most > bottom gas mixes are going to be best. > Wendell > > Trey wrote: > > > > The short version of the answer is that we came > up with this ( 12 on , 6 > > off )by trying everything and arriving at that. We > knew from any of our > > diving that long exposures to higher ppo2s left us > feeling like we had a > > chest cold. We started out with the usual crap > that is taught out there ( 20 > > on then break ) and found that to be useless. We > found loss of vital > > capacity with these regimens. Now we have no such > negative results. > > > > The oxygen takes less than 12 minutes to reach as > high an effective > > saturation level as is useful. Beyond that the > body reacts by constricting > > blood vessels everywhere which limits off gassing, > by trying to protect the > > lining of the lungs and hence thickens the > transfer area by adding cells and > > excreting mucous which impedes gas transfer, and > by causing swelling of the > > lung tissue which further reduces gas exchange > capability, not to mention > > scarring and long term damage that in my opinion > will come back to haunt the > > agencies who teach the baloney. > > > > Returning to a more normoxic ppo2 will reverse > these effects. However, if > > you do not return soon enough, the effects take a > lot longer to reverse. The > > big and important thing here is not to depend on > reversing this action, but > > to preempt it and keep it from fully developing > and thus make what does > > occur easier to reverse and at the same time > actually improve your off > > gassing by opening the capillaries back up and > allowing gas to escape from > > the tissues into the blood. This "toggling" back > and forth has proven to be > > the absolute best method of gas use in > decompression. DIR deco. > > > > If you fail to do this at any point in the deco > using high ppo2s you will > > merely be holding gas in tissues which may expand > before it can be removed > > as you move up - another massive flaw in all of > the existing deco programs. > > > > As you get higher in the water column, off > gassing is more safely and > > effectively achieved by the moving the gradient > and letting gas bubble into > > the bloodstream and be caught and removed by the > lungs, but lower down this > > will not work - one more huge flaw in deco > programs. > > > > You really should look on the WKPP site and read > some of my profiles and > > decompressions on the longer dives to see all the > massive deviations from > > what is thought to be correct by the agencies. > > > > In fact, I will tell you right now that this is > just like deep air - the > > same idiots who fought for their precious deep air > are the ones who teach > > the most incorrect deco and theories of deco. The > same people - give them a > > wide berth in all areas of diving since you can > NOT teach pigs to sing. > > > > If want real information, come to the proven > sources. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Charles Roth [mailto:divr555@ho*.co*] > > Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 2:53 AM > > To: trey@ne*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com > > Subject: RE: Oxygen Clock > > > > Trey, > > In fear of sounding stupid, yes, I would really > like to know how you all > > came up with this. Or at least point me in the > right direction to find the > > resources about this. Thanks. > > > > Chuck R > > > > >From: trey@ne*.co* (Trey) > > >To: "Isaac Callicrate" <icallicrate@ho*.co*>, > <mjblackmd@ya*.co*>, > > ><techdiver@aquanaut.com> > > >Subject: RE: Oxygen Clock > > >Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:35:10 -0500 > > > > > > > > >Isaac, we have found that 12 minutes on, 6 > minutes off is the ideal. We > > >only > > >do oxygen at 30 feet in a habitat where we have > caves that accommodate > > >this. > > >Otherwise we do oxygen at 20 feet or slightly > less in the water with the > > >same schedule. If anyone wants to go back over > why we do this and how we > > >determine bottom gas , deco gas and exposure ( or > how we arrived at what we > > >do), I can repeat it . > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > > >From: Isaac Callicrate > [mailto:icallicrate@ho*.co*] > > > >Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 2:51 AM > > > >To: mjblackmd@ya*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com > > > >Subject: Re: Oxygen Clock > > > > > > > > > > > >Im not sure why everyone is harping on who this > guy is or what he > > > >has posted > > > >in the past instead of answering his questions. > > > >Am I missing something in the charter that says > you have to rate an > > >answer > > > >or that previous posts disqualify you from > getting one? > > > >Ill give it a shot even though there are > probably more informed qualified > > > >people on this list that should be. > > > >I see WKPP as crossing the grey area between > recreational and > > > >working diving > > > >(watch out for OSHA, ADC, and USCG). They are > performing dives where more > > > >compartments are saturated than most other > recreational profiles. > > > >They have > > > >been diving similar profiles over and over so > have built up an amount of > > > >historical data combined with some doppler > research that they have used > > >to > > > >make assumptions about their profiles. > > > >I dont think anyone can say right or wrong yet. > If their people > > > >arent having > > > >DCS manifestations or O2 toxicity issues than I > would definately > > > >say that by > > > >being the guinea pig and letting the rest reap > the rewards of the > > > >data they > > > >are rising above. > > > >Please do the math on a Navy standard TT 6A > with 50/50 @ 165' and 100% @ > > > >60'. Do it on a Navy single exposure of 100% at > 25' for 240 minutes. Why > > > >havent you e-mailed them? Please CC me when you > do. I think it is > > > >publicaffairs@ne*.na*.na*.mi* > > > >WKPP isnt the only one that challenges > theoretical formulas and > > > >assumptions > > > >with historical data. Commercial, military, > hyperbaric facilities all > > >have > > > >modified the standard thinking on the CNS > clock. > > > >My personal feelings, I wouldnt recommend > pushing the clock on a working > > > >dive when not required. For recreational dives, > there is no need > > > >to push it > > > >when you are having fun. If you use a habitat > or a chamber or > > > >maybe at rest > > > >during deco with surface support, the risk is > minimized. > > > >I dont think that taking breaks off O2 is going > to significantly > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. 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