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Thanks , Barry. The overriding differences here are that you and I actually
use the equipment for real in the most demanding circumstances and have the
most number of items out there. Anything else is guesswork.

These guys, and all the others who attempt to copy our stuff are relying on
two things only; 1) that there is an audience who resents, me, the WKPP, GUE
, Halcyon , EE or JJ and 2), that most people have no earthly clue about
this stuff so will believe the most egregious bullshit.

Obviously , between the bunch of us we can make anything we want, and have,
and the results have been the development of things that the rest of the
dive industry has failed to grasp, and is still failing to grasp.


  -----Original Message-----
  From: Barry Miller [mailto:barry15@ea*.ne*]
  Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 12:44 PM
  To: wkpp@ya*.co*
  Subject: Re: [wkpp] Scooter Debunking


  Guys,
      George is right about the HDPE. It works great for the small dia. of
lights, but in a 10" pipe everything changes. I have worked with HDPE longer
than anyone in the industry and I am sure I know what I am talking about.
HDPE has its great points and it has it's limits. Same with PVC, it works
great as a scooter, but makes a poor light caniter in.

  ) The UV-18 appears to be manufactured to finer tolerances, so
  As a machinest, this statement makes no sense. What does it mean "appears
to be".

  Barry

  trey@ne*.co* wrote:

    As per the usual, Rod Nairnes is taking the tack with me that everyone
else takes when failing to come up with an intelligible argument against
what I am saying or doing. Below I have taken some misinformation, lies, and
complete bullshit from Rod's website about my scooter and have put it in
italics in a different color. My comments are in this font.

    FROM ROD's SITE in green italics, my comments in black :

    improvements over the Gavin, the following is a short list that
immediately come to mind, I'm sure there's many more...

    1) The first big difference is that the battery pack & motor clip

    together inside the UV-18 creating a single unit. In the Gavin my

    buddy dives, the battery pack is loose, simply resting on top of

    the motor. This makes charging the batteries and working on the

    scooter, placing weights for buoyancy and trim etc much easier

    with the UV-18.

    complete and utter baloney. The SS scooter is hard wired to the motor
compartment with hardware store crap. The wiring then runs up through the
battery pack and connects at the top. To take this mess apart is a
nightmare. The connections are cheap crap and the upper connector is cheap.
We have an access port in the motor lid for vacuum testing and inspection so
the this lid does not need to be unlatched or the connections disturbed to
check it. To visually see the whole motor, you merely unlatch the lid and
lift it off.

    We are using $68 worth of gold plated superconnectors to plug the
battery packs into the motor lid with sealing fittings. We do not constantly
unplug our scooter, we pin the trigger for transport. We do not want to wear
out these critical connections. There is no loosening of these connections.
They are the highest quality connectors available. Our battery pack is a
unit that can be changed out in seconds.  To charge the scooter, there is a
charging connector under the nose cone. The nose cone locks the batteries in
position. I make three choices of nose cone : nylon, pvc, and hdpe for any
of the scooters.


    that the internal bulkheads only just slide inside the outer shell

    and presumable provide extra support if the outer compresses at all.

    The outer "shell" of the Gavin is PVC pipe with a 3/8 wall. I would
withstand 300 feet with NO bulkheads even if the pvc bulkheads were not part
of the battery pack. HDPE is like butter, and even in the lights we make we
have to bulkhead that little canister or is crushes immediately. I can
bulkhead mine for any depth,and have them set now for 500 feet. The PVC body
 is lighter , thinner, accommodates more inside room, is stiffer,
unbreakable and if you rip out the latches or otherwise find a way to scar a
sealing surface, a new body costs 40 bucks - big deal. Or you can weld it
with hot air and rescrew it or sand off the scar. When hdpe is used for
underground pipe, they have to put a V shield over it because the mere
weight of the earth over it crushes it. Not the right material for a scooter
body. We get aw ay with it in the lights due to the small diameter and
bulkheading ever few inches ( lid, bottom and between the batteries). I use
the pvc body on my hdpe scooters as well.



    3) The UV-18 has a simple connector routed to the top of the scooter,

    which makes switching the unit on simply a case of popping the lid and

    plugging the connectors together. In the Gavin scooter the battery

    connectors are hidden under the battery pack, so you have to take all
the outer shell off and struggle with the weight of the batteries. This has

    lead to my buddy connecting everything while on shore and leaving his

    scooter "live" all the time we're on his RIB.

    More nonsense: to get to the connectors you merely stand the Gavin on
its nose and unclip the tail. You can completely dismantle a Gavin in less
than one minute. You can change the motor out in 2 minutes, you can replace
any part in less than 2 minutes. The battery connectors as well as the reed
switch plugs run through openings in the side of the motor lid and plug in.
They are set so that the battery pack above it prevents them from coming
off. A little more thought from REAL experience scooter diving for years in
real dives where the scooters are truly life support equipment went into
these details.



    4) The UV-18 comes with a throttle where as the Gavin is operated by a

    plastic trigger. The throttle works much better, is more comfortable

    and is much more robust (it also comes with a lock screw). The trigger

    on my friend's scooter broke on the 2nd or 3rd use.

    More nonsense: there is nothing to "break" the trigger. Ask anyone who
does real diving why we use the handles and trigger, and why we would never
use a twist throttle. Ask Buchaly and Waldbrenner who hold the European
record. Ask  Jarrod Jablonski. Ask anyone who does real diving what the many
tricks of the trigger are. Ask yourself why the best in the business do
things the way they do, and ask yourself if the guys ( WKPP ) who developed
this , the Halcyon RB, the lights, the wings, backplate , the rigging style,
DIR , teamwork, backup lights and every other thing that is the best if we
would make or do something that was not optimal when it is so easy for us to
make or do anything we want any time we want? You saw how long it took me to
make a proper version of the SS - about two weeks from the time I got sick
of Rod's lies and his little buddies pumping out anonymous lies ( which
Alton is working on now, so we should have a name for you all soon from that
nonsense).

    Go to http://www.gavinscooters.com to see the scooters in detail, go the
http://www.WKPP.org to see them in use, or go to http://www.gue.com to see
more pictures and uses of these devices.










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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D568272618-01122001>Thanks=20
, Barry. The overriding differences here are that you and I actually use =
the=20
equipment for real in the most demanding circumstances and have the most =
number=20
of items out there. Anything else is guesswork. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D568272618-01122001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D568272618-01122001>These=20
guys, and all the others who attempt to copy our stuff are relying on =
two things=20
only; 1) that there is an audience who resents, me, the WKPP, GUE , =
Halcyon , EE=20
or JJ and 2), that most people have no earthly clue about this stuff so =
will=20
believe the most egregious bullshit.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D568272618-01122001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D568272618-01122001>Obviously , between the bunch of us we can =
make=20
anything we want, and have, and the results have been the development of =
things=20
that the rest of the dive industry has failed to grasp, and is still =
failing to=20
grasp.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D568272618-01122001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D568272618-01122001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Barry Miller=20
  [mailto:barry15@ea*.ne*]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 01, =
2001=20
  12:44 PM<BR><B>To:</B> wkpp@ya*.co*<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[wkpp]=20
  Scooter Debunking<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>Guys,<BR>   
George is =
right=20
  about the HDPE. It works great for the small dia. of lights, but in a =
10" pipe=20
  everything changes. I have worked with HDPE longer than anyone in the =
industry=20
  and I am sure I know what I am talking about. HDPE has its great =
points and it=20
  has it's limits. Same with PVC, it works great as a scooter, but makes =
a poor=20
  light caniter in.<BR><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT =
color=3D#008000><EM>) The=20
  UV-18 appears to be manufactured to finer tolerances,=20
  so</EM></FONT></FONT><BR>As a machinest, this statement makes no =
sense. What=20
  does it mean "appears to be".<BR><BR>Barry<BR><BR><A=20
  class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated=20
  href=3D"mailto:trey@ne*.co*">trey@netdor.com</A> wrote:<BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3D"mid:MABBKNLDLNNBFCMCJFMDMEMBDIAA.trey@ne*.co*"=20
  type=3D"cite">
    <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN
class=3D774170013-01122001>As =
per the=20
    usual, Rod Nairnes is taking the tack with me that everyone else =
takes when=20
    failing to come up with an intelligible argument against what I am =
saying or=20
    doing. Below I have taken some misinformation, lies, and complete =
bullshit=20
    from Rod's website about my scooter and have put it in italics in a=20
    different color. My comments are in this font.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D774170013-01122001>FROM ROD's SITE=20
    in green italics, my comments in black : =
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D774170013-01122001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV>
    <P><EM><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT =
color=3D#008000>improvements over the=20
    Gavin, the following is a short list that<SPAN=20
    class=3D774170013-01122001></SPAN></FONT></FONT></EM><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><FONT color=3D#008000><EM> immediately come to mind, I'm =
sure there's=20
    many more...</EM></FONT></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#008000><EM>1) The
=
first big=20
    difference is that the battery pack & motor =
clip</EM></FONT></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT
color=3D#008000><EM>together =
inside the UV-18=20
    creating a single unit. In the Gavin my</EM></FONT></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#008000><EM>buddy =
dives, the battery=20
    pack is loose, simply resting on top of</EM></FONT></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#008000><EM>the
motor. =
This makes=20
    charging the batteries and working on the</EM></FONT></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT
color=3D#008000><EM>scooter, =
placing weights=20
    for buoyancy and trim etc much easier</EM></FONT></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#008000><EM>with
the=20
    UV-18.</EM></FONT></FONT></P>
    <P><SPAN class=3D774170013-01122001><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>complete and utter=20
    baloney. The SS scooter is hard wired to the motor compartment with =
hardware=20
    store crap. The wiring then runs up through the battery pack and =
connects at=20
    the top. To take this mess apart is a nightmare. The connections are =
cheap=20
    crap and the upper connector is cheap. We have an access port in the =
motor=20
    lid for vacuum testing and inspection so the this lid does not need =
to be=20
    unlatched or the connections disturbed to check it. To visually see =
the=20
    whole motor, you merely unlatch the lid and lift it off. =
</FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P><SPAN class=3D774170013-01122001><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We
=
are using $68=20
    worth of gold plated superconnectors to plug the battery packs into =
the=20
    motor lid with sealing fittings. We do not constantly unplug our =
scooter, we=20
    pin the trigger for transport. We do not want to wear out these =
critical=20
    connections. There is no loosening of these connections. They are =
the=20
    highest quality connectors available. Our battery pack is a unit =
that can be=20
    changed out in seconds.  To charge the scooter, there is a =
charging=20
    connector under the nose cone. The nose cone locks the batteries in=20
    position. I make three choices of nose cone : nylon, pvc, and hdpe =
for any=20
    of the scooters.</FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P><SPAN class=3D774170013-01122001></SPAN></P>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#008000><EM>that
the =
internal=20
    bulkheads only just slide inside the outer =
shell</EM></FONT></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#008000><EM>and =
presumable provide=20
    extra support if the outer compresses at
all.</EM></FONT></FONT></P>
    <P><SPAN class=3D774170013-01122001><FONT face=3DArial
size=3D2>The =
outer "shell"=20
    of the Gavin is PVC pipe with a 3/8 wall. I would withstand 300 feet =
with NO=20
    bulkheads even if the pvc bulkheads were not part of the battery =
pack. HDPE=20
    is like butter, and even in the lights we make we have to bulkhead =
that=20
    little canister or is crushes immediately. I can bulkhead mine for =
any=20
    depth,and have them set now for 500 feet. The PVC body is lighter , =
thinner,=20
    accommodates more inside room, is stiffer, unbreakable and if you =
rip out=20
    the latches or otherwise find a way to scar a sealing surface, a new =
body=20
    costs 40 bucks - big deal. Or you can weld it with hot air and =
rescrew it or=20
    sand off the scar. When hdpe is used for underground pipe, they have =
to put=20
    a V shield over it because the mere weight of the earth over it =
crushes it.=20
    Not the right material for a scooter body. We get =
aw</FONT></SPAN><SPAN=20
    class=3D774170013-01122001><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> ay with it =
in the lights=20
    due to the small diameter and bulkheading ever few inches ( lid, =
bottom and=20
    between the batteries). I use the pvc body on my hdpe scooters as=20
    well.</FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </P>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#008000><EM>3) The
=
UV-18 has a simple=20
    connector routed to the top of the
scooter,</EM></FONT></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#008000><EM>which
makes =
switching the=20
    unit on simply a case of popping the lid
and</EM></FONT></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT
color=3D#008000><EM>plugging =
the connectors=20
    together. In the Gavin scooter the
battery</EM></FONT></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#008000=20
    size=3D2><EM>connectors are hidden under the battery pack, so you =
have to take=20
    all<SPAN class=3D532544812-01122001><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
color=3D#000000=20
    size=3D3>    
</FONT></SPAN></EM></FONT><FONT=20
    color=3D#008000><EM>the outer shell off and struggle with the weight =
of the=20
    batteries. This has</EM></FONT></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#008000><EM>lead
to my =
buddy=20
    connecting everything while on shore and leaving =
his</EM></FONT></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT
color=3D#008000><EM>scooter =
"live" all the=20
    time we're on his RIB.</EM></FONT></FONT></P>
    <P><SPAN class=3D774170013-01122001><SPAN =
class=3D774170013-01122001><FONT=20
    face=3DArial size=3D2>More nonsense: to get to the connectors you =
merely stand=20
    the Gavin on its nose and unclip the tail. You can completely =
dismantle a=20
    Gavin in less than one minute. You can change the motor out in 2 =
minutes,=20
    you can replace any part in less than 2 minutes. The battery =
connectors as=20
    well as the reed switch plugs run through openings in the side of =
the motor=20
    lid and plug in. They are set so that the battery pack above it =
prevents=20
    them from coming off. A little more thought from REAL experience =
scooter=20
    diving for years in real dives where the scooters are truly life =
support=20
    equipment went into these details.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P>
    <P><EM></EM><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </P>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#008000><EM>4) The
=
UV-18 comes with a=20
    throttle where as the Gavin is operated by
a</EM></FONT></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT
color=3D#008000><EM>plastic =
trigger. The=20
    throttle works much better, is more =
comfortable</EM></FONT></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#008000><EM>and is
much =
more robust=20
    (it also comes with a lock screw). The =
trigger</EM></FONT></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#008000><EM>on my =
friend's scooter=20
    broke on the 2nd or 3rd use.</EM></FONT></FONT></P>
    <P><SPAN class=3D774170013-01122001><SPAN =
class=3D774170013-01122001><FONT=20
    face=3DArial size=3D2>More nonsense: there is nothing to "break" the =
trigger.=20
    Ask anyone who does real diving why we use the handles and trigger, =
and why=20
    we would never use a twist throttle. Ask Buchaly and Waldbrenner who =
hold=20
    the European record. Ask  Jarrod Jablonski. Ask anyone who =
does=20
    real diving what the many tricks of the trigger are. Ask yourself =
why the=20
    best in the business do things the way they do, and ask yourself if =
the guys=20
    ( WKPP ) who developed this , the Halcyon RB, the lights, the wings, =

    backplate , the rigging style, DIR , teamwork, backup lights and =
every other=20
    thing that is the best if we would make or do something that was not =
optimal=20
    when it is so easy for us to make or do anything we want any time we =
want?=20
    You saw how long it took me to make a proper version of the SS - =
about two=20
    weeks from the time I got sick of Rod's lies and his little buddies =
pumping=20
    out anonymous lies ( which Alton is working on now, so we should =
have a name=20
    for you all soon from that nonsense).</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P>
    <P><SPAN class=3D774170013-01122001><SPAN =
class=3D774170013-01122001><FONT=20
    face=3DArial size=3D2>Go to <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.gavinscooters.com">http://www.gavinscooters.com</A> =
to see=20
    the scooters in detail, go the <A=20
    href=3D"http://www.WKPP.org">http://www.WKPP.org</A> to see them in =
use, or go=20
    to <A href=3D"http://www.gue.com">http://www.gue.com</A> to see more =
pictures=20
    and uses of these devices.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P>
    <P><SPAN class=3D774170013-01122001><SPAN=20
    class=3D774170013-01122001></SPAN></SPAN><FONT face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2></FONT> </P>
    <P><SPAN class=3D774170013-01122001><SPAN=20
    class=3D774170013-01122001></SPAN></SPAN><FONT face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2></FONT> </P>
    <P><SPAN class=3D774170013-01122001><SPAN=20
    class=3D774170013-01122001></SPAN></SPAN><FONT face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2></FONT> </P>
    <P><SPAN class=3D774170013-01122001><SPAN=20
    class=3D774170013-01122001></SPAN></SPAN><FONT face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2></FONT> </P></DIV><BR><TT>Subscription/removal
=
requests to <A=20
    class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:WernerChris@ms*.co*">WernerChris@msn.com</A>.<BR><BR><
;BR><=
BR></TT><BR><BR><TT>Your=20
    use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <A=20
    href=3D"http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of =
Service</A>=20
    .</TT><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><TT>Subscription/removal
requests to=20
 
WernerChris@ms*.co*.<BR><BR><BR><BR></TT><BR><BR><TT>You
r use of =
Yahoo! Groups=20
  is subject to the <A href=3D"http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! =
Terms of=20
  Service</A>.</TT> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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