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400, 500 like that. We tested the Gavins in a chamber to 450 and in the ocean to 500. -----Original Message----- From: terry michael [mailto:OEA51@go*.co*] Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 8:40 PM To: Trey Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com Subject: Re: Re: GI and SS to Merge What do you mean by extreme depth? -----Original Message----- From: "Trey"<trey@ne*.co*> To: "terry michael"<OEA51@go*.co*> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com Date: Thu Nov 08 04:38:03 PST 2001 Subject: Re: GI and SS to Merge >The pvc it self will not break, it can split where the strikes are attached >if hit hard enough often enough. I t takes me 8 times throwing it on the >floor to get it to break. Nylon absorbs water and swells, but you can cut >them smaller. HDPE is flexy, but light so I can make them a lot thicker and >have the same result. > >I still would go PVC for extreme depth, but now you have you choices with my >stuff. > >-----Original Message----- >From: terry michael [mailto:OEA51@go*.co*] >Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 1:55 AM >To: Trey >Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com >Subject: Re: Re: GI and SS to Merge > > >In my opinion PVC is optimal with regards to integrity and the nylon with >regards to impact resistance. The HDPE is somewhere in the middle. I just >can't see anyone breaking one of those big thick PVC nose cones you use >during a dive, has it actually ever happened, that you know of? > > >-----Original Message----- >From: "Trey"<trey@ne*.co*> >To: "terry michael"<OEA51@go*.co*>, "Bryon Bertrim"<bryon@be*.co*>, >"pina"<pina3@be*.ne*>, "E.N. Von"<evlink2001@ho*.co*>, >quest@gu*.co*, "Cavers@Ca*.Co*"<cavers@cavers.com>, >"Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com"<techdiver@aquanaut.com> >Date: Tue Nov 06 04:42:11 PST 2001 >Subject: Re: GI and SS to Merge > >> >>I agree, but will make them for those who think otherwise. The screw issue >>is not on the scooters built by me but on the fake copies. Also, I offer >>nylon or pvc noses, and they both have their issues. I now also offer HDPE >>noses, and they have their issues as well. >> >>However, you can get any combination from me with a full warranty and I >will >>switch it out for the other versions at no cost if you do not like the one >>you get. Now what? >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: terry michael [mailto:OEA51@go*.co*] >>Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 9:11 AM >>To: Bryon Bertrim; pina; Trey; E.N. Von; quest@gu*.co*; >>Cavers@Ca*.Co*; Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com >>Subject: Re: GI and SS to Merge >> >> >>To start making the scooter in HDPE and a streamlined shroud makes no since >>to me. If it were I I'd keep it the same as before but with the HDPE nose >>cone and figure out some way loose the SS screws in the aluminum. They are >>un-removable and have too be drilled out if you break the cheap plastic >mako >>handle that is crudely burned with a soldering gun to make the cable >>connection. However the motorcycle grip solution is even worse in my >>opinion. >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: "Bryon Bertrim"<bryon@be*.co*> >>To: "pina"<pina3@be*.ne*>, "Trey"<trey@ne*.co*>, "E.N. >>Von"<evlink2001@ho*.co*>, quest@gu*.co*, >>"Cavers@Ca*.Co*"<cavers@cavers.com>, >>"Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com"<techdiver@aquanaut.com> >>Date: Fri Nov 02 14:55:05 PST 2001 >>Subject: GI and SS to Merge >> >>>WOW, i realize this is a touchy issue and so close to home for you too. >Now >>>we know who gets all GIs best service. >>> >>>This scooter market is tiny and no one is going to get rich. Sort of like >>>the dive business. Want to make a small fortune start with a large one. >>This >>>is one area I'm glad to see so many basement pioneers. Lets face it, the >>>Gavin Scooter is not that complex and is easy to clone. Others will >follow. >>>I hope they drive the price way down. The most expensive part is the >>Oceanic >>>motor. Hell a guy down the road took his Gavin to a local high tech >machine >>>shop they blue printed it now he is building and selling them for 2K. >>Almost >>>like the open source SW market. If George really wants support he should >>>publish the blue prints and the tricks of the trade, encourage everyone to >>>build his own or buy parts and be happy that he was responsible for the >>>design. That's what this industry needs as a true pioneer. >>> >>>I don't know Rod's history but he is a good engineer, and is very detailed >>>about his units. He is not trying to cut corners or build a subgrade >>>product. Albeit he will never have the cave experience that GI has but I'm >>>sure GI is not personally hand building every component that goes into >each >>>unit nor has the skill and interest. Rod's abilities and workman ship seem >>>high. I expect both are very good products. I have known Rod for a little >>>over 2 yrs now. And he refuses to bad mouth GI, the Gavin or Halcyon, he >>>makes it quite clear its not something he wants any part of. He is just to >>>busy trying to put food on table like any of us. He once told me that >>>Halcyon was only paying him $12 bucks a hour and he could not afford to >>work >>>for them. And for that meager amount no one owes anybody any loyalty. >>> >>>Rod is quite dedicated to building scooters. Its not some part-time hobby >>>for him. He has built a full-time, full service business rightly or >wrongly >>>and wants to support his customers as best possible. As a customer i >>>appreciate this, its no different from Halcyon when i buy a BC or dive >>>light. Why should i expect anything less from my scooter manufacturer. I >>can >>>not understand why GI bothers. Maybe he and Rod should link up and build a >>>real business. Sounds like a good partnership, I tell you we would all get >>a >>>better product. Only thing is GI could not be in charge of sales. He makes >>a >>>great VC, CEO or spokesman but he would piss off to many customers. >>> >>>When i was ready to buy a scooter from GI, i barley got an email answered, >>>maybe a terse one liner at best. I was afraid that i would unknowing piss >>>him off and never get a part or a fix. This was crazy. Why would anyone in >>>his right mind pay someone to treat them this bad. There are hundreds of >>>examples and references like this. Also GI and even the old WKPPers now EE >>>trainers all made it quite clear that GIs first support cycles go to new >>>WKPP crew, old crew came next and at the bottom of the list were the un >>>knowns like me. Even Carmichael had to get Rod to repair his Gavin, GI did >>>not have the time. Most are either fixing them themselves or have someone >>>local fix them. And Gavins break just like SS units. Now with a little >real >>>competition Trey is sounding a little customer friendly. This is good. >>> >>>So it sounds like we should thank all of them GI, Rod and Bill Gavin. Bill >>G >>>did the original designs, GI took those designs and improved on them, Rod >>>took those designs and improved on them, GI takes Rodney's designs, who is >>>next. Every time someone pisses GI off the price goes down and the product >>>gets better. COOL >>> >>>BB >>> >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "pina" <pina3@be*.ne*> >>>To: "Bryon Bertrim" <bryon@be*.co*>; "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>; "E.N. >>>Von" <evlink2001@ho*.co*>; <quest@gu*.co*>; "Cavers@Ca*.Co*" >>><cavers@ca*.co*>; "Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com" <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >>>Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:34 PM >>>Subject: RE: scooters >>> >>> >>>> George developed these scooters 10 years ago for deep, long range >>>> exploration in the WKPP. There was nothing else available. He bore all >of >>>> the expense of developing and perfecting this tool. Initially, they were >>>> only made available to WKPP members, but later other groups showed an >>>> interest and extras were produced and sold to help fund the Project. All >>>> expenses of the project are paid by George and have been paid by George >>>for >>>> ten years. >>>> >>>> Rodney contacted George and Robert Carmichael about getting a job here >>>so >>>> he could move to the States. George arranged one for him at one of his >>>> father's companies based on Rodney's experience in oz making fishing >>>lures. >>>> Pipewelders is one of his fathers companies. Robert ended up hiring him >>at >>>> Brownies. Robert asked George to show Rodney how to work on the >scooters. >>>> >>>> Rod then quit, came up with a scooter of his own, and is sitting around >>>> riding on our success while producing a kluged product that reflects >>zero >>>> understanding of what makes scooters good or bad, and then badmouths us >>at >>>> the same time with complete lies and a total misunderstanding of why we >>do >>>> what we do and plays to an audience of whiners who like to hate George. >>>Ask >>>> anyone who has dealt with George on scooters or anything else directly >>and >>>> you will get a different answer that the crap that the losers put on >>here. >>>> Ask any of the more than 200 people who own one of George's scooters, >and >>>> ask any of the people who have bullshit clones that fail to perform like >>a >>>> Gavin. >>>> >>>> Then, to add insult to injury . either Rod or one of his little buddies >>>put >>>> out a series of anonymous posts making all kinds of false claims about >>>> George and his scooters. That was it. George warned what he would do - >>>make >>>> the same thing only a hell of a lot better and cheaper, and it took him >>no >>>> time at all to do just that. >>>> >>>> Enough is enough. Some people never get the message about fighting >George >>>> and the WKPP and doing so anonymously or with bullshit and lies. George >>>> merely had his machine shop make up a scooter looking the same ( tapered >>>on >>>> the end like that makes any difference ) and one piece inside and out ( >>>> Rodney's is NOT although he advertises that it is). However, he solved >>>all >>>> of the problems of Rod's scooter and made a far improved version for >less >>>> money that still mates up with all existing scooters made by George, and >>>> like all scooters made by George, has a lifetime warranty and superior >>>> performance. >>>> >>>> So for those who think the submersion is somehow better, think again. >>But, >>>> you can get a far better version of the it cheaper, or you can get the >>>> original Gavin. For those with existing fleets of gavins, these new ones >>>> will mate up in all of the modular components. Once again, results talk, >>>> bullshit walks . >>>> >>>> What happened to the hypocrite who claimed Rod had "improved" on the >>>> design? Which is it, copy or improvement? make up your minds. It is >>always >>>> the worst hypocrites who do the loudest howling. >>>> >>>> The fact is you can have any scooter you want from George, Halcyon, EE >>and >>>> it will be made by people who have the track record to know what they >are >>>> doing and the ability to back it up. is there anything else you guys >want >>>> to fight with George, JJ, Halcyon, EE or WKPP about ? Anyone feel lucky? >>>> George has two courses of action he has followed with liars and >anonymous >>>> bullshitters - 1) let Alton Hall handle it, 2) do something more to the >>>> point. Have it either way. Sooner or later the idiots will get sick of >>>> losing and shut the hell up. >>>> >>>> You guys only hurt one person with this - yourselves. Now you have >>>scooters >>>> that are superseded by a faster, superior product that is sold for less >>>> money. You have killed your own market and your own hero, and made all >of >>>> yourselves look like idiots once again. >>>> >>>> --p >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Bryon Bertrim [mailto:bryon@be*.co*] >>>> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 11:56 AM >>>> To: Trey; pina; E.N. Von; quest@gu*.co*; Cavers@Ca*.Co*; >>>> Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com >>>> Subject: Re: scooters >>>> >>>> >>>> Who is copying who here George? >>>> BB >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*> >>>> To: <trey@ne*.co*>; "pina" <pina3@be*.ne*>; "E.N. Von" >>>> <evlink2001@ho*.co*>; <quest@gu*.co*>; "Cavers@Ca*.Co*" >>>> <cavers@ca*.co*>; "Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com" <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >>>> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 7:37 AM >>>> Subject: RE: scooters >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> > By the way, I make both types of scooter now - the original Gavin and >>>> > another one that is made from HDPE and is tapered at the back, only >>mine >>>> > really is one piece and does not have the bullshit aluminum pipe with >>>> orings >>>> > as a motor compartment like the "submersion", does snot have the kluge >>>> > wiring like the submersion , and does not have the convoluted battery >>>> > arrangement nor the ridiculous "motorcycle handle". >>>> > >>>> > My version is interchangeable with all Gavins I have made, and uses >the >>>> same >>>> > internal parts, works the same way. For instance, mine has $68 cost of >>>> gold >>>> > connectors, my motor compartment is one with the tail, and the body is >>>> hard >>>> > pvc while the rest is soft HDPE. The nose keys the batteries. >>>> > >>>> > I made this because I am sick of strokes copying our hard work and >>>> profiting >>>> > from it, like the submersion guy. This version of the scooter is >>cheaper >>>> to >>>> > produce than the Gavin, so I will be selling it cheaper, and a hell of >>a >>>> lot >>>> > cheaper than submersion. >>>> > >>>> > I will also be maintaining the Gavins for our use and for those who >>want >>>> the >>>> > sure thing at the extreme depths that we know the Gavin is made for. >>>> > >>>> > The only changes I am making to the Gavin are to offer the HDPE nose >>for >>>> > those who want it with the hard nose for super deep, and am using a >>>screw >>>> in >>>> > reed switch if you want it to adjust the trigger more easily. >>>> > >>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>> > From: Trey [mailto:trey@ne*.co*] >>>> > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 7:28 AM >>>> > To: pina; E.N. Von; quest@gu*.co* >>>> > Subject: RE: scooters >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > The scooters pretty much all act the same regardless of size if they >>are >>>> > balanced correctly. Look at the pictures of JJ and I scootering and >>>towing >>>> > magnum's. The big scooters have more lateral stability in motion so >are >>>> > actually easier and more comfortable to ride than little ones. >>>> > >>>> > Pina rides a magnum back to the far reaches of Manatee with no >problem. >>>> > >>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>> > From: pina [mailto:pina3@be*.ne*] >>>> > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 11:44 PM >>>> > To: E.N. Von; quest@gu*.co* >>>> > Subject: RE: scooters >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Just get a Gavin and DIR - no sense fluffing about with other stuff >>that >>>> > won't get you anywhere. >>>> > >>>> > --pina >>>> > >>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>> > From: E.N. Von [mailto:evlink2001@ho*.co*] >>>> > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 11:25 PM >>>> > To: quest@gu*.co* >>>> > Subject: scooters >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > I am interesed in starting to learn to drive a scooter. Can anyone >>give >>>a >>>> > good suggestion for a starter scooter. I have a feeling that a Gavin >>>> would >>>> > be quite a bit to handle for a new driver, but I may be wrong, having >>>> never >>>> > having the chance to see one in person. >>>> > >>>> > Thanks in advance for you help. >>>> > >>>> > E.N. Von >>>> > evlink2001@ho*.co* >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > _________________________________________________________________ >>>> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >>>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co* >>>> > For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co* >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co* >>>> > For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co* >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co* >>>> > For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co* >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co* >>>> > For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co* >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co* >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co* >>>> >>> >>>-- >>>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >>>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >> >> >>___________________________________________________ >>GO.com Mail >>Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com >> >> >> >>-- >>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > >___________________________________________________ >GO.com Mail >Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com > > > ___________________________________________________ GO.com Mail Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. 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