WOW, i realize this is a touchy issue and so close to home for you too. Now
we know who gets all GIs best service.

This scooter market is tiny and no one is going to get rich. Sort of like
the dive business. Want to make a small fortune start with a large one. This
is one area I'm glad to see so many basement pioneers. Lets face it, the
Gavin Scooter is not that complex and is easy to clone. Others will follow.
I hope they drive the price way down. The most expensive part is the Oceanic
motor. Hell a guy down the road took his Gavin to a local high tech machine
shop they blue printed it now he is building and selling them for 2K. Almost
like the open source SW market. If George really wants support he should
publish the blue prints and the tricks of the trade, encourage everyone to
build his own or buy parts and be happy that he was responsible for the
design. That's what this industry needs as a true pioneer.

I don't know Rod's history but he is a good engineer, and is very detailed
about his units. He is not trying to cut corners or build a subgrade
product. Albeit he will never have the cave experience that GI has but I'm
sure GI is not personally hand building every component that goes into each
unit nor has the skill and interest. Rod's abilities and workman ship seem
high. I expect both are very good products. I have known Rod for a little
over 2 yrs now. And he refuses to bad mouth GI, the Gavin or Halcyon, he
makes it quite clear its not something he wants any part of. He is just to
busy trying to put food on table like any of us. He once told me that
Halcyon was only paying him $12 bucks a hour and he could not afford to work
for them. And for that meager amount no one owes anybody any loyalty.

Rod is quite dedicated to building scooters. Its not some part-time hobby
for him. He has built a full-time, full service business rightly or wrongly
and wants to support his customers as best possible. As a customer i
appreciate this, its no different from Halcyon when i buy a BC or dive
light. Why should i expect anything less from my scooter manufacturer. I can
not understand why GI bothers. Maybe he and Rod should link up and build a
real business. Sounds like a good partnership, I tell you we would all get a
better product. Only thing is GI could not be in charge of sales. He makes a
great VC, CEO or spokesman but he would piss off to many customers.

When i was ready to buy a scooter from GI, i barley got an email answered,
maybe a terse one liner at best. I was afraid that i would unknowing piss
him off and never get a part or a fix. This was crazy. Why would anyone in
his right mind pay someone to treat them this bad. There are hundreds of
examples and references like this. Also GI and even the old WKPPers now EE
trainers all made it quite clear that GIs first support cycles go to new
WKPP crew, old crew came next and at the bottom of the list were the un
knowns like me. Even Carmichael had to get Rod to repair his Gavin, GI did
not have the time. Most are either fixing them themselves or have someone
local fix them. And Gavins break just like SS units. Now with a little real
competition Trey is sounding a little customer friendly. This is good.

So it sounds like we should thank all of them GI, Rod and Bill Gavin. Bill G
did the original designs, GI took those designs and improved on them, Rod
took those designs and improved on them, GI takes Rodney's designs, who is
next. Every time someone pisses GI off the price goes down and the product
gets better. COOL

BB


----- Original Message -----
From: "pina" <pina3@be*.ne*>
To: "Bryon Bertrim" <bryon@be*.co*>; "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>; "E.N.
Von" <evlink2001@ho*.co*>; <quest@gu*.co*>; "Cavers@Ca*.Co*"
<cavers@ca*.co*>; "Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com" <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:34 PM
Subject: RE: scooters


>   George developed these scooters 10 years ago for deep, long range
> exploration in the WKPP. There was nothing else available. He bore all of
> the expense of developing and perfecting this tool. Initially, they were
> only made available to WKPP members, but later other groups showed an
> interest and extras were produced and sold to help fund the Project. All
> expenses of the project are paid by George and have been paid by George
for
> ten years.
>
>   Rodney contacted George and Robert Carmichael about getting a job here
so
> he could move to the States. George arranged one for him at one of his
> father's companies based on Rodney's experience in oz making fishing
lures.
> Pipewelders is one of his fathers companies. Robert ended up hiring him at
> Brownies. Robert asked George to show Rodney how to work on the scooters.
>
> Rod then quit, came up with a scooter of his own, and is sitting around
> riding on our success while producing a kluged  product that reflects zero
> understanding of what makes scooters good or bad, and then badmouths us at
> the same time with complete lies and a total misunderstanding of why we do
> what we do and plays to an audience of whiners who like to hate George.
Ask
> anyone who has dealt with George on scooters or anything else directly and
> you will get a different answer that the crap that the losers put on here.
> Ask any of the more than 200 people who own one of George's scooters, and
> ask any of the people who have bullshit clones that fail to perform like a
> Gavin.
>
> Then, to add insult to injury . either Rod or one of his little buddies
put
> out a series of anonymous posts making all kinds of false claims about
> George and his scooters. That was it. George warned what he would do -
make
> the same thing only a hell of a lot better and cheaper, and it took him no
> time at all to do just that.
>
> Enough is enough. Some people never get the message about fighting George
> and the WKPP and doing so anonymously or with bullshit and lies. George
> merely had his machine shop make up a scooter looking the same ( tapered
on
> the end like that makes any difference ) and one piece inside and out (
> Rodney's is NOT although he advertises that it is).  However, he solved
all
> of the problems of Rod's scooter and made a far improved version for less
> money that still mates up with all existing scooters made by George, and
> like all scooters made by George, has a lifetime warranty and superior
> performance.
>
> So for those who think the submersion is somehow better, think again. But,
> you can get a far better version of the it cheaper, or you can get the
> original Gavin. For those with existing fleets of gavins, these new ones
> will mate up in all of the modular components. Once again, results talk,
> bullshit walks .
>
> What happened to the hypocrite who claimed Rod had "improved" on the
> design? Which is it, copy or improvement? make up your minds. It is always
> the worst hypocrites who do the loudest howling.
>
> The fact is you can have any scooter you want from George, Halcyon, EE and
> it will be made by people who have the track record to know what they are
> doing and the ability to back it up. is there anything else you guys want
> to fight with George, JJ, Halcyon, EE or WKPP about ? Anyone feel lucky?
> George has two courses of action he has followed with liars and anonymous
> bullshitters - 1) let Alton Hall handle it,  2) do something more to the
> point. Have it either way. Sooner or later the idiots will get sick of
> losing and shut the hell up.
>
> You guys only hurt one person with this - yourselves. Now you have
scooters
> that are superseded by a faster, superior product that is sold for less
> money. You have killed your own market and your own hero, and made all of
> yourselves look like idiots once again.
>
> --p
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bryon Bertrim [mailto:bryon@be*.co*]
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 11:56 AM
> To: Trey; pina; E.N. Von; quest@gu*.co*; Cavers@Ca*.Co*;
> Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com
> Subject: Re: scooters
>
>
> Who is copying who here George?
> BB
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>
> To: <trey@ne*.co*>; "pina" <pina3@be*.ne*>; "E.N. Von"
> <evlink2001@ho*.co*>; <quest@gu*.co*>; "Cavers@Ca*.Co*"
> <cavers@ca*.co*>; "Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com" <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 7:37 AM
> Subject: RE: scooters
>
>
> >
> > By the way, I make both types of scooter now - the original Gavin and
> > another one that is made from HDPE and is tapered at the back, only mine
> > really is one piece and does not have the bullshit aluminum pipe with
> orings
> > as a motor compartment like the "submersion", does snot have the kluge
> > wiring like the submersion , and does not have the convoluted battery
> > arrangement nor the ridiculous "motorcycle handle".
> >
> > My version is interchangeable with all Gavins I have made, and uses the
> same
> > internal parts, works the same way. For instance, mine has $68 cost of
> gold
> > connectors, my motor compartment is one with the tail, and the body is
> hard
> > pvc while the rest is soft HDPE. The nose keys the batteries.
> >
> > I made this because I am sick of strokes copying our hard work and
> profiting
> > from it, like the submersion guy. This version of the scooter is cheaper
> to
> > produce than the Gavin, so I will be selling it cheaper, and a hell of a
> lot
> > cheaper than submersion.
> >
> > I will also be maintaining the Gavins for our use and for those who want
> the
> > sure thing at the extreme depths that we know the Gavin is made for.
> >
> > The only changes I am making to the Gavin are to offer the HDPE nose for
> > those who want it with the hard nose for super deep, and am using a
screw
> in
> > reed switch if you want it to adjust the trigger more easily.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Trey [mailto:trey@ne*.co*]
> > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 7:28 AM
> > To: pina; E.N. Von; quest@gu*.co*
> > Subject: RE: scooters
> >
> >
> >
> > The scooters pretty much all act the same regardless of size if they are
> > balanced correctly. Look at the pictures of JJ and I scootering and
towing
> > magnum's. The big scooters have more lateral stability in motion so are
> > actually easier and more comfortable to ride than little ones.
> >
> > Pina rides a magnum back to the far reaches of Manatee with no problem.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pina [mailto:pina3@be*.ne*]
> > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 11:44 PM
> > To: E.N. Von; quest@gu*.co*
> > Subject: RE: scooters
> >
> >
> >
> > Just get a Gavin and DIR - no sense fluffing about with other stuff that
> > won't get you anywhere.
> >
> > --pina
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: E.N. Von [mailto:evlink2001@ho*.co*]
> > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 11:25 PM
> > To: quest@gu*.co*
> > Subject: scooters
> >
> >
> > I am interesed in starting to learn to drive a scooter.  Can anyone give
a
> > good suggestion for a starter scooter.  I have a feeling that a Gavin
> would
> > be quite a bit to handle for a new driver, but I may be wrong, having
> never
> > having the chance to see one in person.
> >
> > Thanks in advance for you help.
> >
> > E.N. Von
> > evlink2001@ho*.co*
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co*
>

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