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The whole idea is to have your rig balanced so that full of gas you can drop something and get up, and with no gas, you can stay at ten feet . That goes for all tanks and diving. When you go down, your body spaces compress and you are far less buoyant. This seems to escape those who dive steel tanks with a wetsuit. Even with steels , one needs additional weight in salt water with a shell suit and C-4. A neoprene suit has to be treated like a wetsuit other than the buoyancy of the insulation, since the neoprene crushes and loses it buoyancy. On a boat, it is often a lot easier to use the lighter aluminum tanks for getting around purposes. You have to add more weight obviously to make them act like steels buoyancy-wise, and then the additional weight that salt requires. In the end, aluminum with a wedge and steel back plate are not as heavy as outright steels. If the boat configuration is ok and the seas not rough, steels are fine ( with a drysuit ). I use both, depending on conditions, and I use a weight belt both with 104's and with aluminum. I will say that for most dives, 80's are more than enough. You do not want to incur huge singe dive times with the concomitant deco in the ocean. Two shorter dives are better .If the dive is so deep that it needs more gas, take a stage and breathe that out as your "thirds" so to speak. You just have to add in all the conditions, circumstances, and possible outcomes or problems. -----Original Message----- From: marv [mailto:ajmarve@op*.ne*] Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 2:48 AM To: Trey Cc: Paul M. Deniston; techdiver@aquanaut.com; Jim Cobb; Steve Schultz; terry michael; Rocky Subject: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor George, i have to apologize for taking shots but it should be obvious that the problem was with the text and not the message. Sometimes sarcasm doesnt type well, but then communicating on this list is sometimes worse than ordering coffee in an east new york bodega at 4 am. What would really be nice tho,is if you could take a moment and discuss aluminum tanks for backgas and a drysuit in the ocean. i know you have sent me a note or two in the past indicating that this is actually a good idea, but no one seems to want to hear it from me. What especially flusters folks is deco diving this rig with a weightbelt, even the gue people get all lathered up about it. maybe im just nuts, but i think the best thing is to be able to get to the surface and to stay there when you really want<need> to. what do you think? thanks, marv Trey wrote: > Marv, it does not say any of that now. It was a cave standard copied onto > the other standard by one of JJ's editors on his web site. It has been > removed. Obviously, we don't dive steel tanks with a wetsuit in the ocean. > Only an idiot does that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: marv [mailto:ajmarve@op*.ne*] > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 10:59 PM > To: Paul M. Deniston > Cc: Trey; techdiver@aquanaut.com; Jim Cobb; Steve Schultz; terry > michael; Rocky > Subject: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor > > > well if you want to split hairs it says: > > "students are required to use a manifold assembly with twin tanks, each > with an individual capacity of 95ft" > > It might be read to state that the tanks need not be 95's, but the > manifold assembly must have at least 95 cuft. i.e. no oms double 46's or > ancient usd double 38's or whatever you can get at the back table of the > divers flea market. > > or it could mean you have to have back mounted quads. > > or it could be about selling 104's < who would do such a thing?> > > hmmm, i wonder which it could be..................... > > marv > > > Paul M. Deniston wrote: > >> Trey, >> >> Actually it is possible. Please see page 5 of 6, section H, sub paragraph > > A > >> of the GUE Tech I Standards and Procedures PDF file that is listed at the >> following link. >> >> http://www.gue.com/classroom/standards/student_courses.shtml >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*> >> To: "Paul M. Deniston" <pdeniston@me*.ne*>; "Rocky" >> <rocdiver@be*.ne*>; "Steve Schultz" >> <se2schul@st*.ma*.uw*.ca*>; "terry michael" <OEA51@go*.co*> >> Cc: "marv" <ajmarve@op*.ne*>; "Jim Cobb" <cobber@ci*.co*>; >> <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 8:04 PM >> Subject: RE: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor >> >> >>> Not possible. You are thinking of IANTD. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Paul M. Deniston [mailto:pdeniston@me*.ne*] >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 8:37 AM >>> To: Rocky; Steve Schultz; terry michael >>> Cc: marv; Jim Cobb; techdiver@aquanaut.com >>> Subject: Re: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor >>> >>> >>> I believe if you look at the required equipment for tech I section of the >>> GUE web page, they specify 95's or larger. >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Rocky" <rocdiver@be*.ne*> >>> To: "Steve Schultz" <se2schul@st*.ma*.uw*.ca*>; "terry michael" >>> <OEA51@go*.co*> >>> Cc: "marv" <ajmarve@op*.ne*>; "Jim Cobb" <cobber@ci*.co*>; >>> <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 6:23 PM >>> Subject: Re: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor >>> >>> >>>> Who told you GUE Tech 1 requires twin 95s? If diving wet, as most do >>> >> for >> >>>> Tech 1, twin 80s are the norm . . . >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Steve Schultz" <se2schul@st*.ma*.uw*.ca*> >>>> To: "terry michael" <OEA51@go*.co*> >>>> Cc: "marv" <ajmarve@op*.ne*>; "Jim Cobb" <cobber@ci*.co*>; >>>> <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 1:59 PM >>>> Subject: Re: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor >>>> >>>> >>>>> I own double 80's and double 104's. The 80's are feather light, and >>>> >> the >> >>>> 104's aren't bad, but I'm in the gym every day. >>>> >>>>> I dive cold water and need a ton of lead with my 80's. I wear no lead >>>> >>>> with my 104's (and alum backplate) >>>> >>>>> I feel like I have better trim with my 104's than my 80's. It's >>>> >>> probably >>> >>>> in my head. The 104's feel better on my back (subjective I know). It's >>>> easier for gas matching since my buddies also dive 104's (you dive >>> >> thirds, >> >>>> don't you?) >>>> >>>>> It's also a matter of convienience. I fill my 104's to 3000. Last >>>> >>>> weekend I did 2 light deco dives in 110'. I got off the boat and did a >>>> shore dive with a new diver. He emptied his 80, and I still had gas in >>> >> my >> >>>> tanks for another shore dive. I couldn't have done this with 80's. >>>> >>>>> For anyone who is considering buying 80's or 104's, I leave you with >>>> >>> this >>> >>>> thought. They both have good and bad characteristics, but if you are >>>> planning on GUE training, TECH 1 requires at least twin 95's which makes >>>> your twin 80's useless for the course (except as stages) ;-) >>>> >>>>> ss >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, terry michael wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Again, I'm losing you here. Could you elaborate on this dive >>>>> >> planning >> >>>> stuff and exactly how it works. thanks >>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: "marv"<ajmarve@op*.ne*> >>>>>> To: "terry michael"<OEA51@go*.co*> >>>>>> Cc: "Jim Cobb"<cobber@ci*.co*>, "MHK"<mhkane@pr*.ne*>, >>>>> >>>> "Michael J. Blitch"<mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>, techdiver@aquanaut.com >>>> >>>>>> Date: Mon Aug 27 23:11:07 PDT 2001 >>>>>> Subject: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor >>>>>> >>>>>>> JIm's thing< and its not just Jim, there is a small group now> is >>>>>> >>> that >>> >>>>>>> the only tanks for drysuit is the double 104's. this is despite >>>>>>> commentary from George himself that for ocean, you dont need all >>>>>> >> that >> >>>>>>> gas even in a drysuit and that double 80s should be enuff for most >>>>>> >> of >> >>>>>>> what one might attempt.< "for ocean the aluminum 80 is the tank of >>>>>> >>>>>>> choice"> The rationale seems to be taught by most of your tek >>>>>> >>>> agencies >>>> >>>>>>> that you can never have enuff gas because "you never know what is >>>>>> >>> going >>> >>>>>>> to happen" and people find this more comforting to embrace than the >>>>>> >>>> fact >>>> >>>>>>> that they need to exercise aerobically for diving. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Personally i would suggest that you plan your dive and dive your >>>>>> >>> plan, >>> >>>>>>> altering the plan only in the direction of being conservative >>>>>> >> during >> >>> a >>> >>>>>>> dive. < i.e. less bottom time>. I would also suggest that if your >>>>>> >>> going >>> >>>>>>> to carry a major reserve of one dive parameter<gas> you should have >>>>>>> equvalent supply of any other<scooter/light burn>. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Finally i would suggest that anyone who cant understand why huge >>>>>> >>> tanks >>> >>>>>>> and a tiny scooter might not be a good idea should reread the last >>>>>>> paragraph of Gavin's chapter and look in the mirror. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> marv >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ps i wear dbl 80s, drive a mako and set the treadmill on speed 8 at >>>>>>> least once a day. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> terry michael wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Are we talking about diving thirds here or what? This is a public >>>>>>> >>>> list please explain what you are trying to tell us. >>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: "marv"<ajmarve@op*.ne*> >>>>>>>> To: "Jim Cobb"<cobber@ci*.co*> >>>>>>>> Cc: "MHK"<mhkane@pr*.ne*>, "terry michael"<OEA51@go*.co*>, >>>>>>> >>>> "Michael J. Blitch"<mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>, techdiver@aquanaut.com >>>> >>>>>>>> Date: Mon Aug 27 10:37:44 PDT 2001 >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> so what are you saying Jim, that you dont plan your dives or >>>>>>>> >> dont >> >>>> have >>>> >>>>>>>>> the discipline to follow that plan ? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> you are on the right track with respect to less is best, you >>>>>>>> >> just >> >>>> need >>>> >>>>>>>>> to take it all the way. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> marv >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jim Cobb wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Gas=Life. Is that real enough for you? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jim >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> From: marv <ajmarve@op*.ne*> >>>>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:11:57 -0400 >>>>>>>>>>> To: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*> >>>>>>>>>>> Cc: MHK <mhkane@pr*.ne*>, terry michael <OEA51@go*.co*>, >>>>>>>>>> >>>> "Michael J. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Blitch" <mblitch1@ta*.rr*.co*>, techdiver@aquanaut.com >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Silent Submersion Vs Dacor >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> and yet you doggedly defend the concept of carrying three >>>>>>>>>> >> times >> >>> as >>> >>>> much >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> gas as needed for a given dive< see any old dbl 80 vs 104 >>>>>>>>>> >>> thread.> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Marv >>>>>>>>>>> <keepin' it real, yo> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jim Cobb wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I would still like something smaller, don't see the point in >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> carrying 2 >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> hours worth of burn time on a dive were your actual scooting >>>>>>>>>>> >>> time >>> >>>> is around >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 20 minutes. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to >>>>>>>>> >>>> `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to >>>>>>>>> >>>> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >>>> >>>>>>>> ___________________________________________________ >>>>>>>> GO.com Mail >>>>>>>> Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> ___________________________________________________ >>>>>> GO.com Mail >>>>>> Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to >>>>> >>> `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >>> >>>>>> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to >>>>> >>> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to >>>> >> `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >> >>>>> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to >>>> >> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >> >>>> -- >>>> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >>>> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >>> >>> -- >>> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >>> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >>> > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. 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