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That depends on the fitness of the person. I can run grade four and not get any DCS at all, and clear to 0 in 30 minutes ( did this in an experiment for Navy docs at a WKPP dive by blowing to the surface from 30 feet on a 180 minute bottom time at 285 ). Others just keep foaming and foaming and get bent later, but not type two unless there is a shunt. The type two DCS requires the bubbles to get on the arterial side somehow, and that requires a shunt. Levels of "hydration" are a joke. Different peoples bodies regulate differently. People who can't "cope" are not "fit" to start with, so it is all a moot point anyway. Incorrect deco will not give you type two unless you have a shunt. Fitness and no shunts = easy deco. Anything else is bullshit. Been there, proved that. -----Original Message----- From: SRSCHIRATO@BK*.co* [mailto:SRSCHIRATO@BK*.co*] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 3:28 PM To: trey@ne*.co*; mat.voss@t-*.de* Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com; sstraat1@ta*.rr*.co* Subject: RES: DCS incident Thanks for the reply. Does it mean that other factors such as hydration, inadequate deco profiles, rest, etc, are not so relevant as a PFO or other kinds of heart and/or lung situation? Would it be correct to say that any and all bubbles generated during the dive, no matter Grade 1, 2, 3 or 4, would be filtered by the lungs and would not cause DCS? Thanks, Sergio -----Mensagem original----- De: trey@ne*.co* [mailto:trey@ne*.co*] Enviada em: quinta-feira, 2 de agosto de 2001 21:27 Para: SRSCHIRATO@BK*.co*; mat.voss@t-*.de* Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com; sstraat1@ta*.rr*.co* Assunto: RE: DCS incident Pulmonary shunt, or a pfo that needed special conditions to open, but would not in the lab. IF you get a CNS hit like this, you have shunted bubbles past the lungs. No other way . In fact, you would have one hell of a time bending your spine or brain without basically exploding without a shunt. The tissues are too fast. If you got a CNS hit that way, you are already so dead it makes no difference. Let me give you all a quick lesson in understanding everything about diving: wipe everything you "think" you know from your mind and start over. Find out how simple it really is, and how much bullshit is screwing up your understanding. -----Original Message----- From: SRSCHIRATO@BK*.co* [mailto:SRSCHIRATO@BK*.co*] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 3:43 PM To: trey@ne*.co*; mat.voss@t-*.de* Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com; sstraat1@ta*.rr*.co* Subject: RES: DCS incident Gentlemen, After looking at the statement below, I have a question. I know a case of a diver who got a severe type II DCS hit after a short and deep dive (51m, 12 min). When the data from the diver's computer was analyzed, it was clear that he had complied with the deco requirements for that dive (according to the computer at least, but also apparently according to Abyss, used as a reference). He was tested for PFO after some time (through a Transesophageal echocardiography (TEE)) and no PFO or any other heart defect was found. There were also no bouncing after the dive. Do you have any idea of the reason for such severe hit? Also, I've read an article (I think it was in the Immersed magazine) about divers getting hit (usually type II DCS) after short and deep dives. What would be the reason for that?? Thanks, Sergio -----Mensagem original----- De: trey@ne*.co* [mailto:trey@ne*.co*] Enviada em: quinta-feira, 2 de agosto de 2001 7:27 Para: Matthias Voss Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com; sstraat1@ta*.rr*.co* Assunto: RE: DCS incident Mathias, I see you are back to the misinformation game again. The "undeserved hit" is the excuse DAN uses for covering up the PFO issue. There is no way anyone gets this without a shunt or bouncing after a dive. FACT. The rest of what you wrote is complete bullshit. -----Original Message----- From: Matthias Voss [mailto:mat.voss@t-*.de*] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 3:48 AM Cc: Trey; techdiver@aquanaut.com; sstraat1@ta*.rr*.co* Subject: Re: DCS incident Steve, I am sorry to be this late in replying. It is most probably an " undeserved" hit, Trey mentioned possible causes, another cause could be alveolar rupture affecting which can affect both sides, or a small cyste in the lung breaking. To fast an accent on breathhold can be excluded? When you got someone on the line, be prepared to answer at least the following questions : Chronology of symptoms and everything till arrival at chamber Medication given and response hereto. Preconditions ( medication, hydration, sicknesses, heart conditions, unusual effort in the dive and the 3 days before) history of past DCS There should be made an X-ray of the lungs , or an NMR, to detect a possible cyste. If you haven' already got access to someone giving competent help ( DCIEM ??) you may try to call the german Navy's facility in Kiel. Reception desk is +49 (0)431 54090. They will answer " Bundeswehr Kiel", you may speak english, ask for DR. Ulrich van Laak, indicating a diving accident ( Tauchunfall, Dekompressions-Unfall ) You may refer to my name. Or use +49 (0) 431-549-861, Dr. v. Laak. He is fluent in english. Dr. van Laak is the german DAN chairman as well. They most possibly have treated a similar case in Kiel. e-mail: germany@da*.or* Other: Dr.Roggenbachin +49(0)2 01 50 25 54 or cellphone +49(0)1 71) 2 10 02 87.( my associations scubadoc) he was one of the first to describe hits like that (non DCS1 non DCS 2, resistent to HBO) The DAN-Hotline Switzerland ( through REGA, an Heli-AR servive) +41-1-1414 DAN USA Hotline "DAN Emergency call Prof. Mano" Tel. +1-9 19-6 84 81 11 HTH. Matthias > On Tue, 31 Jul 2001, Trey wrote: > > > This poor kid obviously had a gaping ASD or PFO, and > > took the worst kind of hit. -----Original Message----- > > From: SRS [mailto:sstraat1@ta*.rr*.co*] > > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 4:37 AM > > To: techdiver@aquanaut.com > > Subject: DCS incident > > > > > > I'd appreciate it if anyone can forward to me info regarding DCS treatment > > in the Michigan area - had a friend's nephew (16 years old, fairly > > experienced) get hit while on a 90 ft./:20 dive in Lake Michigan. Can't > > walk/urinate after two chamber rides. Who are the experts in that area, or > > who else (anywhere) should they consult. Trey, if you see this, whose the > > doc. who did the doppler studies on the WKPP guys (U. of MIami?) - the > > friend of mine lives down there, she could get info from him? Any help is > > appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Steve Straatsma > > > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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