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I think there is a fundamental problem here between what is a rec and what is a tech dive. Certainly you can't do a tech dive with a single, that's a given. You cannot do extended deco and have enough back gas to bail no matter how much you overpressure your LP tank, because 2 LP tanks will always hold more than 1. That is pretty basic stuff. The question here is does using an H valve add something to a rec dive? No, as the incidents of regulator failure does not indicate some sort of advantage outside of some odd applications. On the contrary it adds complexity and CF factors. Now, some claim that an H/Y valve allows them to do their DIR thing "just like doubles". To me the real "DIR thing" is to give yourself one gear configuration and use the same configuration on all dives (one more time, this is "techdiver" and I am talking the majority of your dives are tech dives). This way you become one with your gear, you drop into your rig like putting on a favorite set of shoes. Your concentration is on enjoying the dive and on the dangers not on "what fucking rig did I put on today". Your balance is the same on every dive, your valves are in the same place, the hoses run the same way, your buoyancy is the same on every dive, you don't need to fuck with weight belts to fix it, etc. etc. Your dive becomes second nature. "Oh, but this is overkill for weenie dives" the pundits spout. Then treat your weenie dives as training for the big dives. Go ahead, take your stages and everything, get your act sorted out for the big ones. It sucks sorting this shit out when you have limited bottom time and are sucking down expensive helium. And can you do that with 20 different tank/wings/backplate/weightbelt configurations? Hell no. You newbies and lurkers out there, the price of Beuchat Y valves have reached astronomic proportions thanks to some of the nonsense seen on this list. Use your money for a decent set of doubles. Your dive boat don't like doubles? Fuck em and go somewhere else. You can't dive doubles in the Caribbean? Then get on the goddamn cattle boat with a single tank and single reg like all the other 10,000 tourists do every single fucking day and have a nice, enjoyable vacation rec dive. You can't handle the weight of doubles? Take up putt-putt golf, and don't forget to rent a cart. Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------- Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/ > From: mat.voss@t-*.de* (Matthias Voss) > Organization: Harry Haller Memorial Fund > Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:04:25 +0200 > To: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*> > Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com > Subject: Re: H/Y valves, Pony bottles, Invisible demons. > > > > Jim Cobb schrieb: >>> 1) Smaller profile >> a proper set of >> doubles has less of a horizontal hight than a single any day of the week. > > Yep! > > >>> 2) Reduced weight >> >> That's funny when I'm underwater (you do dive don't you?) I cannot seem to >> tell the difference in weight. > > A standard 15l weighs 21 kg, a common 2X7 22 kg, so what the heck. > > >>> 3) Decreased drag > > I do not think so . The further offset center of gravity nags. > >>> 5) Reduced space requirements >> >> So you have 2 tanks separate or together, don't understand your reasoning >> here. They take up the same room > > Well some boats are prepared to host tanks of a special size... > > > >>> 6) KISS: Keep It Simple, Stupid >> >> My whole point with bagging the H or Y valve. > > Well 2 valves are two valves. > > > >> Good Lord I have not seen such frothing at the mouth since the last time I >> said that pony bottles were crap. Pony bottles and H/Y valves are psudo-tech >> bullshit and you bone-heads out there need to pull your heads out of your >> asses and try a set of doubles, you bunch of fucking cheapskates. > > Well in France, Germany, as an Instructor I am required to use 2 > indepentend regs, in France by law, in G by my associations standards, > be it with doubles or singles. > > Reasons are twofold: > Redundancy in case of freezing, and to prevent freezing. > Redundancy in air supply for OOA situations. > some combinations of first/second/backup stages work such that the > "better" reg will suck the air from the "lower", forcing the divers to > time their breathing on each other..., no good in a risky situation. > > >> Doubles are redundant flasks of air connected by an isolator valve. > > Before I knew DIR I did not know of isolator valves. > To me their only reason of existence , other from which can be achieved > by independent valves, is to isolate the bottles in case of a > 1.structural failure of the valve ( overhead impact when scootering ?) > -- very unlikely in open ocean diving, or not scootering,not related to > decompression overhead > > 2. O-Ring failure at bottles neck, again very unlikely, more unlikely > even if considered to develop indive > > 3. manifold structural failure, see 1., manifold failures existed, more > with flat face seals than with barrel type o-rings > > >> H/Y valves and >> Pony bottles are just you guys fighting with invisible demons. Preparing >> most for the disasters that are least likely to happen. > > I think freezing and airsharing happens far more than the above > mentioned failures, which are part of the reasoning ( except the normal > advantages of doubles, which I think are self-understood) for doubles. > > Just my cc > Matthias > > >> Reg failures are exceeding rare. Needing more air than you've got all the >> time. So what do you bozos do? Do nothing about your air supply and strap on >> 2 regulators. That really makes sense. And then you defend this shit to the >> death. >> >> There are always particular circumstances for this or that. Ice diving may >> be one of them, I don't know as I've never done it. But the point is that >> putting a H/Y valve or strapping a pony does not a techdiver make. >> >> Doubles are balanced, redundant, comfortable (both on the surface and in the >> water) and anybody who says otherwise has not tried a set of properly setup >> doubles. >> >> And for those of you who travel, simple, don't overhead dive. There is >> nothing down there worth dieing for, why take the risk? >> >> Jim >> >> -- >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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