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--------------034742AFB55B94B8E537E9D7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jim: I just posted the following message to techdiver: Hello again: Well, I had a few replies to my recent email, referring me to Jim Cobb's previous tongue in cheek posts. Mr. Cobb, my sincerest apologies for not immediately recognizing the ironic humour. But then again, you really drove your point home with me. I guess my Humour Switch was turned off by the talk of recent deaths on this group. I also recently finished "The Last Dive" by Bernie Chowdhury. It's only diving. We are supposed to be doing it for enjoyment. And these deaths are senseless. Sincerely Norm Nopper Please allow me a few additional words: I am in absolute agreement with you. This is a dangerous sport, and we can only mitigate risks, never eliminate them. And the way to manage that risk is through time tested, thoroughly researched methods. For most of my time in this "hobby" - and I use the quotes because SCUBA is not like coin collecting - I kept playing with my gear configuration because it was never "quite right". I always thought that it was unwieldy, and illogical - your knife on your leg, your octopus God knows where, and almost everything out of reach in an emergency. About 18 months ago, I finally tossed all of my old diving crap and went DIR. What I liked most about is is that EVERYTHING is within my reach during an emergency. I too am shocked by the developments in the sport of diving, such as groups offering to teach "solo diving", rebreather diving, "when to leave you buddy" diving .. . . When I first learned how to dive, I was told to remember 3 simple rules: Always keep breathing (never hold your breath), Always dive with a buddy, and Always have Fun. The last rule is not frivolous. It means listen to your fears. If you are not having fun, then your mind is telling you that maybe, just maybe, you are doing something dangerous, and should stop. Either people have stopped having fear, or they have stopped listening to their fear. Either way, we are seeing increasingly risky behaviour out of people. And it makes not sense. And now we are adding to the mix new technologies such as rebreathers and other gadgets. This just adds additional levels of complexity to diving. The more complex the equipment, the more that can go wrong. I have had 11 years of diving, and I won't go near the stuff. Even guys like Trey, who leave me in the dust with respect to experience, are saying that the technology is not robust enough, and that unless you have a good reason for using a rebreather - DON'T. And we have groups "teaching" relative neophytes how to use this equipment. In my opinion, they are giving their students just enough skill to kill themselves. Or, to use the old expression: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Anyway, I gladly accept the title of "Buckethead" for not immediately seeing the irony in you post. And, I always provide everyone with the benefit of the doubt. After all, I did ask you to clarify your message for me. Obviously your intention was to provoke action, and a reaction, regarding this important topic. And if I am the idiot who fell for it - well, if it calls attention to your original post, and provokes discussion, and ultimately saves lives, I will carry the title of Buckethead with pride. Sincerely, Norm Nopper Jim Cobb wrote: > Christ, I used to call people like you "bucketheads", I guess I will > have to bring that term back. Take the fucking bucket off your head, > Norm, and smell the roses. > > The fact is that this is a dangerous sport and you would truly have to > have a full-time, galvanised, farm-grade, bucket thoroughly planted on > your cabeza to not see that. No, people are not supposed to die but > there are so many bad instrokters, bad training organization and > morons, half-wits and imbeciles out there it boggles the mind. > > It is also amazing how people just hand cash over to these people and > take absolutely no initiative to find out exactly what they are > getting involved in. That you have taken the time to join Techdiver is > a good first move, Norm, but the fact is that there that IANTD and TDI > have very expensive insurance policies which are used to pay off the > families of the people who have handed over the cash and croaked in > the process. > > If the industry attitude was NOT "After all this is technical diving > and people are supposed to die now and then." then why bother having > the policies? Why even stay in business at all? This is called > "rationalisation" Norm, and I see it all the time. Read just about > anything by Brett Gilliam and you will see this attitude. > > Jim > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/ > > > From: "N.S. (Norm) Nopper" <nsnopper@pa*.ca*> > Organization: NSN Lakeside Consulting Group > Reply-To: nsnopper@pa*.ca* > Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 08:30:34 -0400 > To: techdiver@aquanaut.com > Subject: "After all this is technical diving and people are > supposed to die now and then." > > > "After all this is technical diving and people are supposed > to die now and then." > (Some recent wisdom offered here on techdiver) > > Hello Everyone: > > I am a long time lurker on this listserver group, and until > today I enjoyed the simple pleasure of sitting back and > LISTENING to what people had to say here. I agree that that > is a lot of garbage and flaming on this forum, but you > simply have to be selective in what you read, and filter out > the noise. > > During the 3 or more years that I have been reading the > posts to this group, I have come to respect the viewpoints > and advice of Trey and his group at WKPP. Like many on this > list, I was very uncomfortable with the way in which Trey > expressed himself. I even sent him a private email with a > few words of advice on how to make his message more > positive. In response, he sent me a friendly email of > thanks. > > HOWEVER, today I am forced to conclude that Trey is > absolutely justified in his communication approach. I became > convinced of this when I read this little "gem of wisdom" in > a recent email by Jim Cobb: > > "Personally I think it would be better to teach something > more along the lines of its best for nobody to die in the > first place, but I know that's totally unrealistic of me. > After all this is technical diving and people are supposed > to die now and then." > (The bold lettering is my emphasis.) > > ARE YOU KIDDING? Mr. Cobb, please tell us that you are being > facetious, and don't really believe this. Put a smiley on > it. Give us a sign that you're not serious. > > If this is truly the philosophy that some "Diver Training > Organizations" (and I use the term loosely) are espousing, > then they should be shut down immediately. > > I took up diving back in 1990 for pleasure and relaxation. I > have all of my own equipment, and I have the best (Halcyon > back plate and wing, Apeks Tek 50). In all my diving, I have > broken below 100 feet exactly twice, because I have no need > or desire to go deeper. I enjoy wreck diving in the Great > Lakes. I have no desire to enter 9 km into caves, or go to > 1100 feet in depth, or push the envelope in any other way. I > leave that to those who have the time and motivation to > train, train, train, and re-train to learn and develop the > techniques to Do It Right. > > I can see that we have unqualified people on this list who > are trying to push that envelope. And worse, they are > recruiting others - under the facade of offering advanced > training - to push that envelope too. > > If I push the envelope and die, it's suicide. > > If I encourage you to push the envelope and you die, it's > murder (if not in the legal sense, then certainly morally). > > Sincerely, > N.S. (Norm) Nopper > > PS: For the love of God, Mr. Cobb, please tell us you didn't > mean this. > > "After all this is technical diving and people are supposed > to die now and then." > > > --------------034742AFB55B94B8E537E9D7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> Hi Jim: <p>I just posted the following message to techdiver: <p>Hello again: <p>Well, I had a few replies to my recent email, referring me to Jim Cobb's previous <br>tongue in cheek posts. Mr. Cobb, my sincerest apologies for not immediately <br>recognizing the ironic humour. But then again, you really drove your point home <br>with me. <p>I guess my Humour Switch was turned off by the talk of recent deaths on this <br>group. I also recently finished "The Last Dive" by Bernie Chowdhury. <p>It's only diving. We are supposed to be doing it for enjoyment. And these deaths <br>are senseless. <p>Sincerely <br>Norm Nopper <br> <p>Please allow me a few additional words: <p>I am in absolute agreement with you. This is a dangerous sport, and we can only <br>mitigate risks, never eliminate them. And the way to manage that risk is through <br>time tested, thoroughly researched methods. <p>For most of my time in this "hobby" - and I use the quotes because SCUBA is not <br>like coin collecting - I kept playing with my gear configuration because it was never <br>"quite right". I always thought that it was unwieldy, and illogical - your knife on your <br>leg, your octopus God knows where, and almost everything out of reach in an <br>emergency. About 18 months ago, I finally tossed all of my old diving crap and <br>went DIR. What I liked most about is is that EVERYTHING is within my reach <br>during an emergency. <p>I too am shocked by the developments in the sport of diving, such as groups <br>offering to teach "solo diving", rebreather diving, "when to leave you buddy" diving <br>. . . When I first learned how to dive, I was told to remember 3 simple rules: <br>Always keep breathing (never hold your breath), Always dive with a buddy, and <br>Always have Fun. <p>The last rule is not frivolous. It means listen to your fears. If you are not having fun, <br>then your mind is telling you that maybe, just maybe, you are doing something <br>dangerous, and should stop. Either people have stopped having fear, or they have <br>stopped listening to their fear. Either way, we are seeing increasingly risky <br>behaviour out of people. And it makes not sense. <p>And now we are adding to the mix new technologies such as rebreathers and other <br>gadgets. This just adds additional levels of complexity to diving. The more complex <br>the equipment, the more that can go wrong. I have had 11 years of diving, and I <br>won't go near the stuff. Even guys like Trey, who leave me in the dust with respect <br>to experience, are saying that the technology is not robust enough, and that unless <br>you have a good reason for using a rebreather - DON'T. <p>And we have groups "teaching" relative neophytes how to use this equipment. In <br>my opinion, they are giving their students just enough skill to kill themselves. Or, to <br>use the old expression: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. <p>Anyway, I gladly accept the title of "Buckethead" for not immediately seeing the <br>irony in you post. And, I always provide everyone with the benefit of the <br>doubt. After all, I did ask you to clarify your message for me. <p>Obviously your intention was to provoke action, and a reaction, regarding this <br>important topic. And if I am the idiot who fell for it - well, if it calls attention to your <br>original post, and provokes discussion, and ultimately saves lives, I will carry the <br>title of Buckethead with pride. <p>Sincerely, <br>Norm Nopper <p>Jim Cobb wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE>Christ, I used to call people like you "bucketheads", I guess I will have to bring that term back. Take the fucking bucket off your head, Norm, and smell the roses. <p>The fact is that this is a dangerous sport and you would truly have to have a full-time, galvanised, farm-grade, bucket thoroughly planted on your cabeza to not see that. No, people are not supposed to die but there are so many bad instrokters, bad training organization and morons, half-wits and imbeciles out there it boggles the mind. <p>It is also amazing how people just hand cash over to these people and take absolutely no initiative to find out exactly what they are getting involved in. That you have taken the time to join Techdiver is a good first move, Norm, but the fact is that there that IANTD and TDI have very expensive insurance policies which are used to pay off the families of the people who have handed over the cash and croaked in the process. <p>If the industry attitude was NOT <b>"After all this is technical diving and people are supposed to die now and then."</b> then why bother having the policies? Why even stay in business at all? This is called "rationalisation" Norm, and I see it all the time. Read just about anything by Brett Gilliam and you will see this attitude. <p> Jim <br>------------------------------------------------------------------- <br>Learn About Trimix at <A HREF="http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/">http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/< /A> <blockquote> <br><b>From: </b>"N.S. (Norm) Nopper" <nsnopper@pa*.ca*> <br><b>Organization: </b>NSN Lakeside Consulting Group <br><b>Reply-To: </b>nsnopper@pa*.ca* <br><b>Date: </b>Mon, 2 Jul 2001 08:30:34 -0400 <br><b>To: </b>techdiver@aquanaut.com <br><b>Subject: </b>"After all this is technical diving and people are supposed to die now and then." <br> </blockquote> <blockquote><b>"After all this is technical diving and people are supposed to die now and then."</b> <br>(Some recent wisdom offered here on techdiver) <p>Hello Everyone: <p>I am a long time lurker on this listserver group, and until today I enjoyed the simple pleasure of sitting back and LISTENING to what people had to say here. I agree that that is a lot of garbage and flaming on this forum, but you simply have to be selective in what you read, and filter out the noise. <p>During the 3 or more years that I have been reading the posts to this group, I have come to respect the viewpoints and advice of Trey and his group at WKPP. Like many on this list, I was very uncomfortable with the way in which Trey expressed himself. I even sent him a private email with a few words of advice on how to make his message more positive. In response, he sent me a friendly email of thanks. <p>HOWEVER, today I am forced to conclude that Trey is absolutely justified in his communication approach. I became convinced of this when I read this little "gem of wisdom" in a recent email by Jim Cobb: <p>"Personally I think it would be better to teach something more along the lines of its best for nobody to die in the first place, but I know that's totally unrealistic of me. <b>After all this is technical diving and people are supposed to die now and then.</b>" <br>(The bold lettering is my emphasis.) <p>ARE YOU KIDDING? Mr. Cobb, please tell us that you are being facetious, and don't really believe this. Put a smiley on it. Give us a sign that you're not serious. <p>If this is truly the philosophy that some "Diver Training Organizations" (and I use the term loosely) are espousing, then they should be shut down immediately. <p>I took up diving back in 1990 for pleasure and relaxation. I have all of my own equipment, and I have the best (Halcyon back plate and wing, Apeks Tek 50). In all my diving, I have broken below 100 feet exactly twice, because I have no need or desire to go deeper. I enjoy wreck diving in the Great Lakes. I have <i>no desire</i> to enter 9 km into caves, or go to 1100 feet in depth, or push the envelope in any other way. I leave that to those who have the time and motivation to train, train, train, and re-train to learn and develop the techniques to Do It Right. <p>I can see that we have unqualified people on this list who are trying to push that envelope. And worse, they are recruiting others - under the facade of offering advanced training - to push that envelope too. <p>If I push the envelope and die, it's suicide. <p>If I encourage you to push the envelope and you die, it's murder (if not in the legal sense, then certainly morally). <p>Sincerely, <br>N.S. (Norm) Nopper <p>PS: For the love of God, Mr. Cobb, please tell us you didn't mean this. <p><b>"After all this is technical diving and people are supposed to die now and then."</b> <br> <br> </blockquote> </blockquote> </html> --------------034742AFB55B94B8E537E9D7-- -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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