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Good post Joel.
I can not dispute anything in that post. Everything there was either fact,
or clearly an opinion with clear reasoning. I was purposely (perhaps
childishly <g> ) responding to your "absolute" post saying that a valve
that is "not fully open is shut". Clearly, this is not true. I could
expound
upon my statement that a valve that is "not fully shut is open" and show
how THAT is true . However, when you expound on your statement,
your logic is sound. Even if one did not agree with your decision, you
made a point and supported it with reasoning...Not making up facts...etc.
That was really the point of any of my posts. There are a lot of good
facts, good opinions, and good discussions on this list. I just get
irritated when the line between fact or opinion gets blurry. Your
opinions are crystal clear to me.
Happy diving!
Dave
dsmith218@ho*.co*
ICQ# 25409809
Moderation is for the poor, and the healthy...of which I am neither. -
Polver
-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Silverstein [mailto:JoelSilverstein@sn*.ne*]
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 12:01 AM
To: David E. Smith
Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: RE: Isolating Manifold Question
Dave,
Shouting will clearly get you nowhere with me.
There will always be people who will want to try it another way. But here's
the deal. There are only two reasons to open a valve on a back set -- 1 is
to fill the tank set, the other is to breathe from the tank set. If all the
valves are fully open before getting in the water then that is one thing one
no longer has to think about. If they are partially open then one never
really knows do they ? Are they open 1/2 way, 3/4 or 1/4 way ?
As much as you may not like absolutes, I don't like valves that are not
absolutely open. In the unlikely event i need to access someone else's gas
and i take the long hose from them I want them to make sure that they always
have gas on their back up reg -- if the valves are all the way open to begin
with there is little possibility the left post was knocked closed -- now we
both get to live.
See those valves are not open all the way for you ........ they are open all
the way for me!
Regards,
Joel Silverstein
http://www.nitroxdiver.com
At 08:08 PM 4/16/2001 -0400, David E. Smith wrote:
I say again, louder...
If it is not shut, it is open.
(This is a good argument, don't you think?)
dsmith218@ho*.co*
ICQ# 25409809
Moderation is for the poor, and the healthy...of which I am neither. -
Polver
-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Silverstein [mailto:JoelSilverstein@sn*.ne*]
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 12:48 AM
To: David E. Smith; RDecker388@ao*.co*; rikard.lundgren@sw*.se*
Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: RE: Isolating Manifold Question
If it's not open it's closed.
At 10:18 PM 4/14/2001 -0400, David E. Smith wrote:
I don't think it is "common sense" that a valve be fully open or
fully shut. That is a matter of opinion. Clearly there are
arguments/opinions
for either method (fully open or partially shut).
dsmith218@ho*.co*
ICQ# 25409809
Moderation is for the poor, and the healthy...of which I am neither. -
Polver
-----Original Message-----
From: RDecker388@ao*.co* [mailto:RDecker388@ao*.co*]
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 7:55 PM
To: rikard.lundgren@sw*.se*
Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: Re: Isolating Manifold Question
In a message dated 4/14/01 9:55:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
rikard.lundgren@sw*.se* writes:
> >As for the 3/4 of European divers using this method, divers taking
there
> first steps into tech training , do so with IANTD or TDI,
> >, as shut downs are apart of syllabus, my instructor & people i
have
> listened to use this method, and as far as i a aware As the said
> organisations are wide spread >around Europe , i can only conclude
that
they
> are also shown this method.
>
I suspect this is more a matter of the individual instructor than what's
actually in the standards. I've read both of these agency's standards
at
one
time or another and do not recall a single line about requiring
paritially
open ISOs.
Common sense dictates that all valves need to be either all the way on
or
all
the way off. In a stressful situation requiring a valve shut-down it
would
be way too easy to turn the valve the wrong way if it's only partly
open.
With a strict on/off approach, the valve is only going to turn one
way......
THE RIGHT ONE! Bare handed, gloves or mitts, shutting down a valve is
not a
difficult matter with a little practice.
Bob D.
www.SportDiverHQ.com
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D090342200-18042001>Good post=20
Joel.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D090342200-18042001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D090342200-18042001>I can not=20
dispute anything in that post. Everything there was either=20
fact,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D090342200-18042001>or clearly=20
an opinion with clear reasoning. I was purposely=20
(perhaps</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D090342200-18042001>childishly=20
<g> ) responding to your "absolute" post saying that a=20
valve</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D090342200-18042001>that is "not=20
fully open is shut". Clearly, this is not true. I could =
expound</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D090342200-18042001>upon my=20
statement that a valve that is "not fully shut is open" and=20
show</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D090342200-18042001>how THAT is=20
true . However, </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D090342200-18042001>when you expound on your statement,=20
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D090342200-18042001>your logic=20
is sound. Even if one did not</SPAN></FONT><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D090342200-18042001> agree with your =
decision, you=20
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D090342200-18042001>made a point=20
and supported it with </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D090342200-18042001>reasoning...Not making up=20
facts...etc.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D090342200-18042001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D090342200-18042001>That was=20
really the point of any of my posts. There are a lot of=20
good</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D090342200-18042001>facts, good=20
opinions, and good discussions on this list. I just=20
get</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D090342200-18042001>irritated=20
when the line between fact or opinion gets blurry. =20
Your</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D090342200-18042001>opinions are=20
crystal clear to me.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D090342200-18042001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN =
class=3D090342200-18042001>Happy=20
diving!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D090342200-18042001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DTahoma><SPAN=20
class=3D090342200-18042001>Dave</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT size=3D4><FONT color=3D#808000=20
face=3D"Lucida Handwriting">dsmith218@ho*.co*<BR></FONT><FONT =
color=3D#000080=20
face=3DTahoma>ICQ# 25409809</FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=3D#ff0000 face=3D"Monotype Corsiva" size=3D4>Moderation =
is for the=20
poor, and the healthy...of which I am neither. - Polver<BR> =
</FONT></P>
<DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Joel Silverstein=20
[mailto:JoelSilverstein@sn*.ne*]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 17, =
2001 12:01=20
AM<BR><B>To:</B> David E. Smith<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
techdiver@aquanaut.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Isolating Manifold=20
Question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT size=3D3>Dave,
<BR><BR>Shouting will =
clearly=20
get you nowhere with me. <BR><BR>There will always be people who will =
want to=20
try it another way. But here's the deal. There are only two reasons to =
open a=20
valve on a back set -- 1 is to fill the tank set, the other is to =
breathe=20
from the tank set. If all the valves are fully open before getting =
in the=20
water then that is one thing one no longer has to think about. If they =
are=20
partially open then one never really knows do they ? Are they open 1/2 =
way, 3/4=20
or 1/4 way ? <BR><BR>As much as you may not like absolutes, I don't like =
valves=20
that are not absolutely open. In the unlikely event i need to access =
someone=20
else's gas and i take the long hose from them I want them to make =
sure=20
that they always have gas on their back up reg -- if the valves are all =
the way=20
open to begin with there is little possibility the left post was knocked =
closed -- now we both get to live. <BR><BR>See those valves are =
not open=20
all the way for you ........ they are open all the way for me! =
<BR><BR>Regards,=20
<BR><BR>Joel Silverstein<BR><A
href=3D"http://www.nitroxdiver.com/"=20
eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.nitroxdiver.</A><A=20
href=3D"http://www.nitroxdiver.com/"=20
eudora=3D"autourl">com<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&l
t;/A>At 08:08 PM =
4/16/2001=20
-0400, David E. Smith wrote:<BR></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dcite cite type=3D"cite"><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3Dtahoma=20
size=3D3>I say again, louder...</FONT><FONT =
size=3D3><BR> <BR></FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff face=3Dtahoma size=3D3>If it is not shut, it is =
open.</FONT><FONT=20
size=3D3><BR> <BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3Dtahoma
=
size=3D3>(This is a=20
good argument, don't you think?)</FONT><FONT=20
size=3D3><BR> <BR><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#808000
face=3D"Lucida =
Handwriting"=20
size=3D4>dsmith218@ho*.co*<BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000080 =
face=3Dtahoma=20
size=3D4>ICQ# 25409809<BR></FONT><FONT
size=3D3><BR></FONT><FONT =
color=3D#ff0000=20
face=3D"Monotype Corsiva, Zapf Chancery" size=3D4>Moderation is for =
the poor, and=20
the healthy...of which I am neither. - Polver<BR> =
<BR></FONT><FONT=20
face=3Dtahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Joel =
Silverstein [<A=20
href=3D"mailto:JoelSilverstein@sn*.ne*"=20
=
eudora=3D"autourl">mailto:JoelSilverstein@sn*.ne*</A>]<BR><B>Sent:</
B> =
Sunday,=20
April 15, 2001 12:48 AM<BR><B>To:</B> David E. Smith; =
RDecker388@ao*.co*;=20
rikard.lundgren@sw*.se*<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
techdiver@aquanaut.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Isolating Manifold=20
Question<BR><BR></FONT><FONT size=3D3>If it's not open it's
closed.=20
<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>At 10:18 PM 4/14/2001 -0400, David E.
Smith =
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dcite cite type=3D"cite">I don't think it is =
"common sense"=20
that a valve be fully open or<BR>fully shut. That is a matter =
of=20
opinion. Clearly there are<BR>arguments/opinions<BR>for either =
method=20
(fully open or partially shut).<BR><BR>dsmith218@ho*.co*<BR>ICQ#=20
25409809<BR><BR>Moderation is for the poor, and the healthy...of =
which I am=20
neither. -<BR>Polver<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Original =
Message-----<BR>From:=20
RDecker388@ao*.co* [<A href=3D"mailto:RDecker388@ao*.co*"=20
eudora=3D"autourl">mailto:RDecker388@ao*.co*</A>]<BR>Sent: Saturday, =
April 14,=20
2001 7:55 PM<BR>To: rikard.lundgren@sw*.se*<BR>Cc:=20
techdiver@aquanaut.com<BR>Subject: Re: Isolating Manifold=20
Question<BR><BR><BR>In a message dated 4/14/01 9:55:22 AM Eastern =
Daylight=20
Time,<BR>rikard.lundgren@sw*.se* writes:<BR><BR>> >As for =
the 3/4=20
of European divers using this method, divers taking there<BR>> =
first=20
steps into tech training , do so with IANTD or=20
TDI,<BR>> >, as shut downs are apart of =
syllabus, my=20
instructor & people i have<BR>> listened to use this =
method,=20
and as far as i a aware As the said<BR>> organisations are wide =
spread=20
>around Europe , i can only conclude that<BR>they<BR>> are =
also shown=20
this method.<BR>><BR><BR><BR>I suspect this is more a matter
of =
the=20
individual instructor than what's<BR>actually in the =
standards. I've=20
read both of these agency's standards at<BR>one<BR>time or another =
and do=20
not recall a single line about requiring paritially<BR>open=20
ISOs.<BR><BR>Common sense dictates that all valves need to be either =
all the=20
way on or<BR>all<BR>the way off. In a stressful situation =
requiring a=20
valve shut-down it would<BR>be way too easy to turn the valve the =
wrong way=20
if it's only partly open.<BR>With a strict on/off approach, the =
valve is=20
only going to turn one way......<BR>THE RIGHT ONE! Bare =
handed, gloves=20
or mitts, shutting down a valve is not a<BR>difficult matter with a =
little=20
practice.<BR><BR>Bob D.<BR><A
href=3D"http://www.sportdiverhq.com/"=20
eudora=3D"autourl">www.SportDiverHQ.com</A><BR>--<BR>Send mail for
=
the=20
`techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.<BR>Send=20
subscribe/unsubscribe requests to=20
`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.<BR><BR>--<BR>Send mail for the =
`techdiver'=20
mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.<BR>Send =
subscribe/unsubscribe=20
requests to=20
`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></
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