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Why didn't you call or write to PADI's QA department and issue a complaint
about this instructor - obvious this instructor broke standards (110 ft for
one) depending on if this is a true story.
To make it easier for you and others out there that have first-hand
experience on standards violations, PADI's quality assurance email address
is: qa@pa*.co* or you can contact Brad Smith, Manager Training and Quality
Management directly at brads@pa*.co*.
Unless someone informs the agency that an instructor is doing sub-standard
work and/or not teaching within the standards of the agency, the agency will
not have a clue. Unfortunately most people who take classes assume the
instructor is right and its amazing to see how people dive afterwards. They
are carbon-copies of their instructor.
Instead of wasting our time and "bitching" about it - I suggest everyone
that has first hand experience with a sub-standard instructor take the
effort to make a formal complaint regarding the instructor in question.
I'd love to see how many of you out there would really do this. Its easier
for you to "bitch" then to get involved.
I agree that many instructors from all agencies should not be teaching and
its a wonder they got certified in the first place and I do agree the
standards for becoming an instructor are to low but that's how it is. Its
our responsibility as divers to police ourselves and our fellow divers.
One more thing I've noticed - everyone who "has an opinion" doesn't teach,
but they think they know everything - go figure. If you think you can do
better, step up to the plate, become an instructor yourself and make a
difference. Otherwise, don't bother us.
Todd
BTW - You might want to check your spelling next time ....
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian&Kari Hunter
To: techdiver
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: WARNING - Coffee Alert
Just my 2 cents worth. I was on a dive in S.C. it was a PADI shop and there
was a PADI instructor(instroketer)teaching some OW people. This one lady
very nice was just married to a guy who was a diver they were planning to do
a late honeymoon in coz. so she thought she would superise him and get
certified to dive. Well as I later found out she was scared to deth of the
ocean and the dumb ass instructor told her the only way she would get
certified was to go on this dive(dive was 110 ft remember OW certification
here). Well on the way out she heard some people talking about seeing some
sharks and she got REAL nervous then seasick, and couldn't do the dive. When
we got back she asked if she could do some more inland diving to get better
first and the instructor said "no if you want to do this we will be going
out tomarrow and that will be the only way(in the ocean where she's
afraid)you'll get certified.When I heard that I told him I thought he was an
asshole and that the lady probably wont ever get certified.He didn't like
that, and I also told him what I thought about the rest of his
operation(didn't check cards or ask about experience just Put Another Dollar
In and lets dive).Guess what the last time I was in SO.CO. I heard he was
going to teach tec diving, can't wait to see that cluster f__k. PADI what a
way to die!!
----- Original Message -----
From: Art.Paltz@R2*.CO*
To: techdiver@aquanaut.com
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 2:57 PM
Subject: RE: WARNING - Coffee Alert
Why are we trying to place blame on one person or the other? It's both for
Gods sake. There are some really great instructors out there, connected
with different agencies, just like there are bad ones! I think the agencies
are at fault for not policing their instructors and making it harder to get
an instructor license and keeping it. They are also at fault for not making
their materials more in-depth and being slow to react to new information.
They are also at fault for not having tougher standards when teaching
someone something that can easily get you killed if there is the simplest
screw up.
The instructors are also at fault. They have the ability of being either
good teachers or bad ones. A good teacher knows his/her limitations and
knows not to cross them. Just about anyone can probably teach a resort
course in warm clear water at 40 feet on a reef. If this is your
limitation, don't apply for a deep cold certification and take someone in
that environment and pretend to know what you are talking about. One of my
biggest problems is that there is no real connection between what the
instructor knows or that they keep up their skills for that instruction
level. How many instructors do you know who can teach you wreck specialty
when all they do is one or 2 local dives while spending the rest of their
diving career in the Caribbean looking at fish on a reef or swimming around
a wreck?
We've got plenty of instructors up here in the NE that can teach you dry
suit diving and give you some cockamamie certification for it when all they
do is dive in a quarry and make one local boat trip. The rest of the time
they are taking people to warm water. On the other hand there are other
instructors that pretty much only dive in their local environment. You
typically don't see them giving you some tropical fish identification
certification... Good instructors and bad ones. I think what constitutes a
bad instructor is attitude (not caring if you actually understand something
or not) as well as not knowing their limitations.
It's both, agencies and instructors.. By no means a complete list!
This thread is starting to get very old!
Art.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Greenhouse [mailto:b.greenhouse@ut*.ca*]
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 12:20 PM
To: haglandg@to*.co*
Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: Re: WARNING - Coffee Alert
Gary
I agree with you on most points except your last one. It is the
instructor, not the agency. Neither of the two MSDTs you talk about were
practising what they preach. PADI has no need to make understanding basic
decompression theory an additional criteria for the rating of MSDT. These
two guys were diving beyond their training. Unless either of them were
trained by a tech agency, they were beyond what they had been taught (which
includes following the Recreational Dive Tables). If they had tech
training, then it's that agency that's to blame (please don't say they were
tec-rec).
I'm not saying that PADI is perfect. I know a few incredibly
incompetent instructors myself. That being said, teaching a person to dive
to 30 feet in the carribean isn't that hard. Students are taught that if
they enter an environment different than the one they were trained in, they
should get an orientation dive with a local divemaster or instructor.
Probably due to attitudes like the ones on this list, people think that it's
only a money-grab. While I agree that it is a bit of a money grab, there is
also some sense in the madness. You can't expect every instructor to have
dove in every conceivable set of circumstances. I dive and teach in cold
water with limited visibility relative to more tropical locales. However, I
don't have a lot of experience in currents, and so I would never try and
teach a student how to drift dive. By recommending that students get
oriented in new environments, you can ensure that they get taught by people
who have experience in that area. Anyhow, most students will probably never
venture too far from the conditions in which they were trained. PADI also
advocates that students take a tuneup if they haven't been diving for a
while.
There are many bad things about PADI, not the least of which is (what I
perceive as) the lax standards for IDC admission. However, I think that a
good instructor from PADI is as good as an instructor from any other RSTC
training program. A bad instructor from PADI is as bad as any other
instructor. If someone has hard stats that more PADI divers are getting
injured than divers from other training agencies, I think PADI would be very
interested to hear it, as would I.
I'm sure I'll get some flames on this, but I would be interested in
rational discussion. I think that while there are a lot of bad areas within
PADI, they are no worse than any other agency on the market (GUE does seem
to be changing things though...).
All that being said, don't get me started on Tec-Rec.
Ben
Gary Hagland wrote:
Adam,Have been watching your posts and understand your feelings about PADI.
I was certified as an instructor by that agency in 1978 when there was an
entirely different ethos to their approach to dive training. We took great
pride in creating competent divers. Those instructors who took short cuts,
rushed classes, and certified marginal students were looked upon as scum.
Unfortunately, because of their business based system, they are now the
norm. More unfortunately, most of those same individuals think they're
doing a terrific job because they know no better. They're encapsulated in
PADI propaganda. However, most of them one day wake up and discover that
their efforts outpace the rewards. The return on investment sucks.
Economically, it doesn't make sense to be a dive instructor, especially a
incompetent one. They quit. That's a blessing for the dive community, but
their system seems to be able to churn out more of the same. I know some
good PADI Instructors, but the active ones of my acquaintance have
diminished to three. Since the beginning of the year here on Okinawa, there
have been two confirmed cases of DCS among the American military community.
Both were PADI Master Scuba Diver Trainers. One went for a five mile run
after completing a dive to 190 FSW. The other spent 30 minutes trying to
dislodge a porthole from a U.S. ship sunk during the battle here at 146 FSW,
and which should probably be considered a war grave since 60 sailors are
still aboard, and ran out of air before he could make his first stop at 40
feet. After 45 minutes he went back to the wreck. During his ascent, he
began to feel pain between his 20 and 10 foot stops. Perhaps if PADI made
understanding basic decompression theory an additional criteria for the
rating of MSDT, we would have fewer accidents and better training by that
agency's instructors. The mantra that it's the instructor not the agency is
passé.Gary HaglandOkinawa, Japan
-----Original Message-----
From: Adam [mailto:deepwrecks@ya*.co*]
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 1:52 AM
To: William Anzueto
Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: Re: WARNING - Coffee Alert
When PADI started they where non profit organization. I am not against PADI
making money. I stand against PADI's bullshit to lower the standards to
produce instructors and sell impressive but worthless titles. They are
certifying instructors regardless of their skills and teaching ability to
gain market share.Because PADI believes more instructors produce more
divers. More divers mean more money. Do you know instructor candidates will
be marked down if they fail to promote up coming classes. (Basket weaving or
perhaps Pumpkin Carving Specialty any one) As I said again and again there
are great instructors out there. The ultimate insult to all good instructors
regardless of agency who worked hard and care about quality, safety of their
students is to be put in to the same class as these morons. Because they
happened to share the same Master Instructor Trainer title. Difference is
one earned the title and the other bought it. ;-)<?xml:namespace prefix = o
ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Cheers
Adam
William Anzueto <willanz@ms*.co*> wrote:
Adam,
Interesting that you should post this....
I wonder what kind of business you are in...do they make money by providing
a service or material? That's what makes the world go round. So yes PADI is
in for making money...and now the rest of the agencies are cachting up.
My training:
PADI Instructor.
GUE Cave 1 and doing Cave 2 next month.
My opinion on PADI....agency just makes the outline....the instructor makes
a big difference.
I train my courses since GUE Cave 1 very differently.
Dive soon,
William
"Cave Country , FL"
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