I personally can't speak for anyone else here as i don't know many personally
BUT I for 1 was the STUDENT from HELL and still am. Ask Andrew or john Walker
from GUE. BUT NO Instructor worth the NAME Instructor for ANY reason in MY book
will pass a student if he's NOT ready to dive safely and HOPE with time he will
improve and NOT get himself or others killed in the meantime.

My so called skills would have gotten me KILLED IF my original NAUI Instructor
had let me PASS. What he did do was tell me he's stick with me till I could
PROVE I was safe to dive with a member of his own family IF I'd stick it out
and follow his instructions. See he did NOT think I'd make it and tried
everything he could to get me to drop it on my own. I just kept coming back for
more and got better and better and finally PROVED I could dive safely per HIS
standards and got my card and went on to LEARN diving..

At the time I could barely swim and got winded just carrying a tank 75 feet to
the pool. I'd just gotten back from Hawaii where a PADI Instroker had taken me
on a 50 intro dive and had to swim me back to the boat because I pooped out. He
told me it did not matter how bad a swimmer I was in HIS words with modern
SCUBA Gear you could dive safely even IF you could not swim at all.

Last time I was in Hawaii I was told he's now teaching on the Aggressor Fleet.
He was a DAMN nice guy BUT With what I learned in my NAUI course he could have
gotten me killed. Hell I panicked at the THOUGHT of my mask being off in just
15 ft of water.

The PADI Guy was working off a HUGE tourist boat operation there and their ONLY
Iinstroker the NAUI Guy was doing it privately and part time with his main job
as a Doctors assistant and doing Tech Dive training in his spare time.
He's once been a PADI assistant instructor but switched agencies due to his
feeling that NAUI had higher safety standards for their instructors.

Since then many yrs ago i've dove with many people from different agencies BUT
the only ones who SCARE the HELL out of me have ALWAYS been PADI guys. When I
start questioning them and find out how LITTLE the really know as to WHY they
do what they are supposed to do as divers. In MOST cases the answer is that's
what my instructor told me to do.

I'm sure you've seen many more horror stories in here over the years. So tell
me why do MOST of them come from agency like PADI TDI and IANTI? Hmmmm.....

BTW I did NOT Pass my Tech 1 GUE course BUT I was told what to do to get in
SHAPE to take it again AFTER more experience BUT I'd BET I'd pass the so called
PADI tech course with flying colors. haha

L8R

Todd Sieber wrote:

> And what American corporation doesn't want to make a buck - Paul L., tell
> me - do you work for free?
>
> If so, I have a piles of s**t that needs to be picked up from all the morons
> out there that truly think they know what they are talking about.  When are
> you going to understand they EVERY agency turns out bad instructors and
> EVERY agency needs to make money to stay in business.
>
> BTW, let me guess - yourself and all the "I'm better than you crowd" - all
> of you were all perfect examples of divers for day one - your skills were
> perfect, you never made a mistake, you were just a bad-ass diver.  Come on
> now, let's all grow up and admit we all took years to get where we are today
> and we've all gone to the school of hard knocks.
>
> And remember, not every diver out there wants to be just like you and the
> rest of "the group" - most could careless about anything more than warm
> tropical water following a guide around.
>
> As far as PADI goes, remember they are not the only organization out there -
> I don't see anyone else coming to bat to change things.  Its simple, there's
> no need.  Diving is no different then any other sport, some people get it
> and some don't - some quit and other go on and some die and some don't.
>
> Todd
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Lewitsch" <plewitsch@ya*.co*>
> To: "Paul Braunbehrens" <Bakalite@ba*.co*>; "Ian Puleston"
> <DiverIan@pa*.ne*>; "Todd Sieber" <todd@un*.co*>;
> <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 4:22 PM
> Subject: RE: WARNING - Coffee Alert
>
> > The phone # says it all 1-800-pay-padi
> > --- Paul Braunbehrens <Bakalite@ba*.co*> wrote:
> > > Ian, I agree with most of what you say, and I agree
> > > that you *can*
> > > turn out good students under the PADI system.  But
> > > look, it's a
> > > simple fact, PADI is the governing body watching
> > > over the
> > > instructors.   The fact that there is so much
> > > substandard instruction
> > > *must* be laid at PADI's feet, because there is no
> > > one else.  Blaming
> > > the individual instructors is pointless, as long as
> > > PADI doesn't
> > > change who can teach, they will remain the same.  It
> > > must come from
> > > PADI if we are to see a change.
> > >
> > > Ian Puleston wrote:
> > > ~
> > > >But the party line isn't "certify all that pay".
> > > The PADI course standards
> > > >clearly state that a student diver must "master"
> > > every skill before going on
> > > >to the next. The skills taught, if mastered by the
> > > student, should be
> > > >sufficient to bring the student to a level where
> > > he/she can safely do easy
> > > >dives and start to gain the experience to move on
> > > up.
> > > >
> > > >The question is can a student master those skills
> > > in the time frame of a
> > > >typical course (usually 4 weeks or 2 weekends). My
> > > observations have been
> > > >that some can, some can't. If the instructor
> > > certifies those that cannot
> > > >then it is he that is at fault. Many instructors
> > > push out sub-standard
> > > >divers because doing it properly would mean
> > > bringing those students back for
> > > >further training, which would cost them (the
> > > instructor) time and money.
> > > >
> > > >Then you have the question of what level of mastery
> > > is required. A student
> > > >who wants to go and dive warm water with a dive
> > > guide while on vacation
> > > >probably doesn't need to master the skills so well
> > > as one who is going to
> > > >dive unsupervised in a less-ideal environment.
> > > That's a judgment call for
> > > >the instructor, and again, a good instructor should
> > > be prepared to tell a
> > > >student that they need to come back for further
> > > training where he thinks its
> > > >needed.
> > > >
> > > >We all know that PADI's goal is to make money, and
> > > that they want to turn
> > > >out as many divers as possible to make as much
> > > money as possible - PADI
> > > >themselves admit to that. If they are at fault
> > > here, which they probably
> > > >are, it is in not enforcing the standards that they
> > > have published. But it
> > > >is primarily the instructors who are not meeting
> > > those standards who are at
> > > >fault.
> > > >
> > > >A good instructor can turn out good divers using
> > > the PADI system. I know
> > > >some very good cold water divers who came through
> > > that system.
> > > >
> > > >>  -----Original Message-----
> > > >>  From: Paul Braunbehrens
> > > [mailto:Bakalite@ba*.co*]
> > > >>  Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 5:37 PM
> > > >>  To: Todd Sieber; techdiver@aquanaut.com
> > > >>  Subject: Re: WARNING - Coffee Alert
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>  Todd, as long as the party line is "certify all
> > > that pay", the
> > > >>  instructor is powerless.  There needs to be some
> > > kind of line drawn,
> > > >>  and if you can't cross that line you don't get
> > > certified.  The
> > > >>  agencies have been loosening the requirements,
> > > if anything.  It's
> > > >>  true that you can have good and bad instructors
> > > in any system, but a
> > > >>  good system is one that is able to adhere to a
> > > minimum standard.  In
> > > >>  my experience, PADI's minimum is not acceptable
> > > for diving around
> > > >>  here (Monterey).  Then again, maybe it's fine
> > > for warm water no
> > > >>  stress diving, I wouldn't know.
> > > >>
> > > >>  Todd Sieber wrote:
> > > >>  ~
> > > >>  >Paul,
> > > >>  >
> > > >>  >Look I'm on your side on the issue of some
> > > people shouldn't get certified
> > > >>  --
> > > >>  Paul B.
> > > >>  --
> > > >>  Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
> > > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> > > >>  Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
> > > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Paul B.
> > > --
> > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
> > > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
> > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
> > http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
> --
> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
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