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<excerpt>-Attachments:
<excerpt>Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 16:22:56 -0700
To: void@wo*.st*.co*
From: "Bruce R. Wienke" <<brw@la*.go*>
Subject: Re: Get Your Facts Straight
Cc: rebreather@nw*.co*, deco@de*.co*, Nauitec@ao*.co*
Bcc:
X-Attachments:
<excerpt> Will, Ghessem and others
</excerpt> I generally pay little attention to the rantings and
ravings of DumbFucks on the Net, but this one deserves some back
comment in same manner tendered by you.
1) the meter folks in the recreational and tech diving business
these
days know a hell of lot more about decompression statistics,
models,
and validation then you ever will -- and they put their
money
where it really counts, not in words.
2) many "academic nerds" were fighting, diving, dying (Nam, Desert
Storm)
long before you pieces of shit were aborted on floors by your
mothers,
in SEAL, UDT, Special Warfare Underwater Ops (diving you'll
never do),
so don't assume anything about us (LANL, meter folks, Duke, or
anybody
in the recreational, tech, or commercial sectors),
3) the intracelluar spacing on the order of angstroms easily
accommodates
bubbles and seeds of smaller size that can be excited into
growth --
and downstream nobody knows if the insult is mechanical,
occluding,
or biochemical -- "remotely well perfused big ass cell"
indeed.
4) the "bubble model shit" is high school physics, go back and
talk to Mr
Wizard on TV
5) and do go "nerd out", Wienke's math is trivial to most who know
simple
applied deco theory, but not to the quantitatively
disadvantaged who
outgas frequently on the Net, but never ingas fact. Bottom
line
is that if you can't do math, you really can do any science --
qualitative bullshit is cheap and you guys are rich in it.
6) get your reports straight about what's being tested in the UK
and
what is not.
7) there are no secrets about RGBM testing and validation -- we
have been posting for some time, and the model is trival, but
you
nearbrights don't really get it. RGBM is "not stuck"
8) please do tell me why a "bubble once ruptured should adopt the
coating
of the ruptured cell" -- cytology experiments with injected
mix gas bubbles (very thin, permeable, and fragile EOSs) do
not
</excerpt> show that, instead, bubble integrity continues.
<excerpt>
9) getting bored so will signing of
BW
<excerpt>
On Wed, 29 Nov 2000 DanReind@ao*.co* wrote:
> Perhaps I'm posting on the wrong list, but I thought I'd throw in my
general
> views on table validation.
Yes, you're defintely posting on the wrong list. ;)
> of the RGBM testing results will be published as soon as possible.
He is
> stuck between a bit of a rock and a hard place with the
deco-community
> screaming for data release, and the dive-computer group insisting on
> non-disclosure of model secrets - I don't envy that dilemma.
Well, that's largely BS (hark back to the diss about LANL). Only an
academic nerd would find himself cornered by a bunch of lightweights
like the "dive computer group". They'd all cave and offer big
royalties
at that first sign of his model impressing the general dive community.
As
I was alluding to, it's a marketing game, pure and simple.
WARNING: I am going to nerd-out, now, big-time. Besides, Weinke's math
is
overly obscure. Not that it's related, but I've been studying the
molecular biology of intercellular communication lately, and while I
wasn't even remotely thinking about decompression algorithms, what
I found was very interesting (when I get that email account
restored, I'll post this to the deco list):
Something that's been bugging me for a long time is that while
all this bubble model shit sounds really nice, and is mathmatically
oriented, why is it that we basically have only two localities
for bends sympotoms (major joints, and CNS). Granted, I'm leaving
out the tail ends like vestibular bends and Cutis Marmorata, but the
*vast* bulk lies in two physical localities - major joint junctions
and
nervous tissue.
As it turns out, on the molbio front, in virtually every human tissue
(meaning muscle, bone, liver, skin, etc) the individual cells of that
tissue have free and clear open channels to their neighbors. These
channels have a plenty big Angstrom-width to diffuse molecules like
Nitrogen and Helium virtually instantly across the entire tissue,
meaning
that in something like 30 seconds or less, the entire tissue attains
partial pressure equilibrium. In short, any remotely-well perfused
tissue
acts as one single big-ass cell.
This reseach is quite recent - over the past year or two. Anyway,
what struck me as interesting is that while, say, your liver or
cartelidge cell groups act as one giant intercommunicative unit,
differening tissue types do not have intercellular links.
Meaning, if we're going to consider different non-communative groups,
it
comes down to tissue boundaries.
So, from looking at the recent research, aside from clearly linked
stuff like the fact that nitrous oxide is an inter-cellular messenger
that facilitates vasoconstriction via a bio-pathway that's
apparently some 2 Billion years old (hmmm...), I have to wonder about
whether the larger part of overt DCS symptoms have to do with pressure
boundaries between tissues, and/or introduction of a bubble nucleus
at a point where there is no lesser tissue partial pressue of
surrounding
tissue to adsorb the bubble, as we might expect from a more-or-less
perfectly diffused system with inter-tissue boundaries (nerve vs.
nerve
sheath, and bone vs. cartelidge).
The other part I've been thinking about is that once a "bubble" is
formed, it's likely that due to cellular rupture, it would adopt
the lipid bilayer coat of the cell it just ruptured, which has
interesting
implications about stability of surface tension.
-Will
Eventually more
> info will come out, in the mean time I hope that Tristan's
preliminary
> results have reminded us all to keep our skeptic hats on for all
> deco-modeling, deep diving will probably remain a risk-fraught
activity for
> many years to come.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dan
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Daniel Reinders
> Graduate Student
> Department of Bio-resource Engineering
> University of British Columbia
> Vancouver, British Columbia
> Canada
>
</excerpt>
</excerpt>
</excerpt>
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