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Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 08:51:38 -0400
To: trey@ne*.co* (Trey)
From: Capt JT <captjt@mi*.co*>
Subject: Re: clarification was: An the beat goes on and on
Cc: <dwiden@ho*.co*>, "'Scott'" <scottk@hc*.co*>, <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Trey, I will agree, the tapes are the best way for those that do not know 
how to mix to see it done like it should be or take a class, but then its 
money again if you do that, may be to wrong guy. Mixing is not a big deal.

At 06:54 AM 10/1/00 -0400, you wrote:
>JT, good to point this stuff out. Let me suggest that people use my mixing
>protocol ( DIRI and DIR II ) and our bottle marking scheme, and deployment
>scheme to avoid the only idiosyncratic risk in gas diving.
>
>
> > Yes, it makes more sense now. I think Dave and I were talking the Big
> > Picture, you were just talking hose and basic fittings. You have to have
> > the connection for the scuba tanks, I got the "combination tank checker"
> > which has  everything and removed the gauge and added quick disconnects to
> > it, the hose and gauge. That allowed me to do several things with it, I
>had
> > my hose made at a hose shop, high pressure/SS 1/4 MNPT on the ends(54
> > dollars 6ft). The tank checker was around 125 dollars, I got 2 of them one
> > for each end, then added quick disconnects to them and to the 02 & He
> > bottle adapters, now I can go from Din to Din, Yoke to Yoke,Yoke to Din,
>02
> > or He to Din or Yoke and still use them as pressure checkers. I added a
> > control valve and better gauges later on. This can be seen on my site
>right
> > now on the gear tips page under "Mixing Kit"  www.capt-jt.com  I should
> > have the "Bottles" page up by tomorrow. Mixing is not rocket science, the
> > problem most have with it is "self confidence", one thing VBtech does when
> > we prepare for a dive, you are invited and encourage to help and be
>present
> > at your own mixing of your tanks. You do not need a card for that. The
>only
> > draw back is what the shop has to pay for the He and then it is past on to
> > the diver, if it was not for the "Lawyers" who would surely say it is
> > unsafe in court to make a buck , everyone would be using welding gas.
> >
> >    At 02:46 PM 9/30/00 -0400, Trey wrote:
> > >JT, I'm saying you can get that all from the gas
> > >supplier with the exception of the part that fits
> > >the scuba tank, not that you do not need it. I think
> > >we are  missing each other here someplace on this.
> > >The other end gets the threaded fitting that goes
> > >with the flex hose fittings.
> > >
> > >Anyway, the point is that one does not have to take
> > >a beating to do this, or deal with dive shop
> > >officiousness and card waving strokes.
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Capt JT <captjt@mi*.co*>
> > >To: George "Trey" Irvine <trey@ne*.co*>;
> > >dwiden@ho*.co* <dwiden@ho*.co*>; 'Scott'
> > ><scottk@hc*.co*>; techdiver@aquanaut.com
> > ><techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > >Date: Saturday, September 30, 2000 12:39 PM
> > >Subject: Re: clarification was: An the beat goes on
> > >and on
> > >
> > >
> > > >Trey, you are exactly right, but you must point out
> > >that the whip you speak
> > > >of only goes one way. If you are doing stage mixes
> > >and they are yoke, you
> > > >will need an adapter, you also need to be able to
> > >go to 02 or He cylinder =
> > > >more parts or second whip.
> > > >The welding dealers here will sale you the gas, but
> > >you must have a
> > > >contract and pay cylinder rental. This is no new
> > >world for me, I have never
> > > >used anything but welding gas.
> > > >It is also a fact that more than one or 2 or even 3
> > >cylinders must be used
> > > >to obtain a fill in a set of doubles with a high He
> > >content, more so when
> > > >filling your own 02 deco tanks when doing a
> > >pressure fill. I am constantly
> > > >cycling out the low cylinders and putting new full
> > >ones at the end of the
> > > >"line" to have the high pressure one needs from
> > >doing the transfer pressure
> > > >fill procedure.
> > > >A booster pump makes it much easier, I will venture
> > >to say I make less
> > > >income than any diver who dives as much as I do and
> > >I do not do deep air.
> > > >It is a real burden for me, but it proves that if I
> > >can do it, so can those
> > > >who should quit diving deep air and be real
> > >leaders.
> > > >
> > > >  At 08:24 PM 9/29/00 -0400, Trey wrote:
> > > >>JT, I have Sherwood parts and the flex hose , T's
> > > >>and fittings that come from the gas supplier. 80
> > > >>bucks.  The difference between the "grades" of
> > > >>helium is the prices and the number of times they
> > > >>vacuum the bottles. It all comes from the same
> > >tank.
> > > >>
> > > >>The suppliers here will not sell welding for
> > >diving
> > > >>due to the accidents, but if one wanted to open an
> > > >>account as a welding operation, one could, but I
> > >get
> > > >>it delivered to the house. I'll pay the extra for
> > > >>the convenience.
> > > >>
> > > >>I realize this is Brave New World for most of you,
> > > >>but get serious, it is dead nuts simple.
> > > >>
> > > >>-----Original Message-----
> > > >>From: Capt JT <captjt@mi*.co*>
> > > >>To: Trey <trey@ne*.co*>; dwiden@ho*.co*
> > > >><dwiden@ho*.co*>; 'Scott' <scottk@hc*.co*>;
> > > >>techdiver@aquanaut.com <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > > >>Date: Friday, September 29, 2000 8:03 PM
> > > >>Subject: Re: clarification was: An the beat goes
> > >on
> > > >>and on
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> >Actually your both right and both wrong. No one
> > > >>here gets He and 02 as
> > > >> >cheap as I do. Of all the postings I've seen on
> > > >>prices, no one comes even
> > > >> >close to my price. Then again I am using
> > >Industrial
> > > >>grade gas ( better
> > > >> >known as welding gas) I do not offer it to
> > >anyone
> > > >>else as it becomes a
> > > >> >hassle for me to get and not everyone is
> > > >>comfortable with it, some think
> > > >> >they must have medical grade gas. Those that
> > >must
> > > >>purchase He though a dive
> > > >> >shop, must pay the higher price because they, in
> > > >>the best interest of the
> > > >> >customer must use the medical grade gas, which
> > >is
> > > >>much higher in cost. If
> > > >> >they did not and something happen surely a dive
> > > >>Lawyer of some kind would
> > > >> >get involved. Also I saw mentioned of a price
> > >for
> > > >>330cuft of He. There is
> > > >> >not a cylinder for that amount. A "T" bottle of
> > >He
> > > >>holds 286 cuft at 2,640
> > > >> >psi and a "K" bottle holds 213 cuft at 2,200
> > >psi.
> > > >>There is a seldom used
> > > >> >cylinder called a HC-500 which holds 432 cuft at
> > > >>4,500 psi , but I have
> > > >> >been unable to get one.  Those that have been to
> > >my
> > > >>home and seen the rows
> > > >> >of He and 02 can't believe I keep that much
> > >here.
> > > >>  I also have argon)
> > > >> >As for the whip, yes you can purchase a piss
> > >poor
> > > >>whip for 80 dollars, that
> > > >> >has no Gauge and is as short as my dick. I have
> > >the
> > > >>most advance portable
> > > >> >transfer whip "kit" made, with gauges, hose,
> > > >>anlayzer, quick disconnects
> > > >> >that allow me to do everything I need in a
> > > >>transfer. The 80 dollars won't
> > > >> >buy the pelican box that carries the stuff.It
> > >did
> > > >>not come from a dive shop.
> > > >> >Sometime this weekend I will put on my site all
> > >the
> > > >>facts about the 02,He
> > > >> >T&K bottles and others along with details and
> > > >>photos, I have often heard
> > > >> >people ask what the difference was, from this
> > >post
> > > >>you all should know now.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >At 08:38 AM 9/29/00 -0400, Trey wrote:
> > > >> >>ALL BULLSHIT - grade of helium means nothing.
> > >Here
> > > >>in SF we have to use USP
> > > >> >>because of the accidents that Mouth's idiots
> > >have
> > > >>had, but "welding" helium
> > > >> >>is fine. The parts can be obtained from the gas
> > > >>supplier, a whip is about 80
> > > >> >>bucks absolute MAX . You idiots are just used
> > >to
> > > >>the standard dive industry
> > > >> >>bullshit.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>----- Original Message -----
> > > >> >>From: David B. Widen <dwiden@ho*.co*>
> > > >> >>To: 'Scott' <scottk@hc*.co*>;
> > > >><techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > > >> >>Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 7:03 AM
> > > >> >>Subject: RE: clarification was: An the beat
> > >goes
> > > >>on and on
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> > Scott
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > I do not know where in the world you are but
> > > >>for USP HE I wish we could
> > > >> >>get
> > > >> >> > it from the suppliers for .13 ft. You are
> > > >>probably getting welding grade
> > > >> >>for
> > > >> >> > that. Plus you need to add the tank
> > > >>rental/delivery charges and unusable
> > > >> >>gas
> > > >> >> > (can get it all out) cost to the cu ft
> > >charge.
> > > >>The last time I check, a
> > > >> >>good
> > > >> >> > HE/O2 Parcial Pressure filler whip with
> > >gauges
> > > >>is $600-$800, O2 analyzer,
> > > >> >> > ignore the compressor and labor. What are
> > >parts
> > > >>of the business are there
> > > >> >> > cover.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > David
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > >> >> > > From: Scott [mailto:scottk@hc*.co*]
> > > >> >> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 11:13
> > >AM
> > > >> >> > > To: techdiver@aquanaut.com; Trey
> > > >> >> > > Subject: Re: clarification was: An the
> > >beat
> > > >>goes on and on
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > The next thing we have to work on is a way
> > >to
> > > >>get the
> > > >> >> > > agencies to embrace
> > > >> >> > > hyperoxic trimix, and get it into the
> > >hands
> > > >>of advanced level
> > > >> >> > > recreational
> > > >> >> > > divers. I have been turning people on to
> > >HOTx
> > > >>for 6 months,
> > > >> >> > > but there are
> > > >> >> > > several problems:
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > Most people are charging .65 to .75 a foot
> > > >>for He, which is
> > > >> >> > > ludicrous, since
> > > >> >> > > the cost is a round .13 a foot. The
> > >typical
> > > >>reasons are
> > > >> >> > > "because I have to
> > > >> >> > > buy a compressor" blah, blah, blah. As a
> > > >>parallel, one of my
> > > >> >> > > buds has an
> > > >> >> > > office supply biz. He has two copiers that
> > > >>cost more than any
> > > >> >> > > compressor,
> > > >> >> > > and he gets a nickel a copy off one, and
> > >.25
> > > >>a copy from the
> > > >> >> > > other. Others
> > > >> >> > > sell double fills of trimix for 80 to 120
> > > >>dollars. We can
> > > >> >> > > double the money
> > > >> >> > > on our gas at $16 for singles, and around
> > >$28
> > > >>to $32 for most
> > > >> >> > > dubs. This rip
> > > >> >> > > off has to be brought to light as well.
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > NO ONE should have to take $9,000 worth of
> > > >>TDI or IANTD
> > > >> >> > > training to be able
> > > >> >> > > to use the gas, which, in reality, is
> > >*safer*
> > > >>than air for diving.
> > > >> >> > > Without a trimix shingle, or a guy like me
> > > >>who will do a fill
> > > >> >> > > for people I
> > > >> >> > > know, they are unable to use the gas
> > >anywhere
> > > >>else, unless
> > > >> >> > > they blend it in
> > > >> >> > > their garage, which many are doing.
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > I took a gent out yesterday to dive on the
> > > >>gas, and he was
> > > >> >> > > amazed at how
> > > >> >> > > much better he felt afterwards. Normally,
> > >his
> > > >>hands really
> > > >> >> > > hurt after diving
> > > >> >> > > air (slightly arthritic), but HOTx didn't
> > > >>have that effect.
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > I brought this up to the "instructor base"
> > > >>over on rec.scuba, and they
> > > >> >> > > howled like a bunch of mashed cats. NAUI
> > >and
> > > >>IANTD totally
> > > >> >> > > missed the ball
> > > >> >> > > on this one with their "Normoxic trimix
> > > >>course", which is
> > > >> >> > > just another way
> > > >> >> > > to separate you from your money.
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > Before anyone starts screaming, lets just
> > > >>remember the noise made when
> > > >> >> > > Nitrox was suggested for recreational
> > >divers.
> > > >>Mountains of
> > > >> >> > > dead divers were
> > > >> >> > > predicted...
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > Scott
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> >> > > From: Trey <trey@ne*.co*>
> > > >> >> > > To: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; Mike Strong
> > > >><divermike@fn*.ne*>
> > > >> >> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 1:09 PM
> > > >> >> > > Subject: Re: clarification was: An the
> > >beat
> > > >>goes on and on
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > > If all of us insist that these guys do
> > > >>things properly ,
> > > >> >> > > then they will
> > > >> >> > > find
> > > >> >> > > > a way to do that.
> > > >> >> > > >
> > > >> >> > > > The problem is that when idiots like
> > > >>Gilliam get into the
> > > >> >> > > mix, we all
> > > >> >> > > > suffer. I can't imagine traveling 12,000
> > > >>miles to dive in a
> > > >> >> > > great spot and
> > > >> >> > > > doing it on air.
> > > >> >> > > >
> > > >> >> > > > We have the same problem in New Jersey,
> > > >>where the Seeker
> > > >> >> > > idiots proudly
> > > >> >> > > dive
> > > >> >> > > > air and bullshit gear, like "poney"
> > >bottles
> > > >>of air with air
> > > >> >> > > in doubles
> > > >> >> > > >  just to be sure there is no mistake
> > >about
> > > >>how dumb they are) with
> > > >> >> > > > slobwinders to turn the ponies on. They
> > > >>serve a clientele
> > > >> >> > > of strokes.
> > > >> >> > > >
> > > >> >> > > > The harder we make it for the idiots to
> > >be
> > > >>idiots, the
> > > >> >> > > better it will be
> > > >> >> > > for
> > > >> >> > > > all of us.
> > > >> >> > > >
> > > >> >> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> >> > > > From: Mike Strong <divermike@fn*.ne*>
> > > >> >> > > > To: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > > >> >> > > > Cc: <trey@ne*.co*>
> > > >> >> > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 3:37
> > >PM
> > > >> >> > > > Subject: clarification was: An the beat
> > > >>goes on and on
> > > >> >> > > >
> > > >> >> > > >
> > > >> >> > > > > List:
> > > >> >> > > > >
> > > >> >> > > > > There has been some confusion about my
> > > >>views, and what I
> > > >> >> > > did or did not
> > > >> >> > > > say
> > > >> >> > > > > regarding a Truk Lagoon Trip.  Most of
> > > >>these messages were in the
> > > >> >> > > private
> > > >> >> > > > > forum, but I want to say all this in
> > >the
> > > >>open.
> > > >> >> > > > >
> > > >> >> > > > > I DO NOT support any form of deep air
> > > >>diving, diving
> > > >> >> > > below 130' without
> > > >> >> > > > > Helium, or any diving operation
> > >involved
> > > >>with Brett
> > > >> >> > > Gilliam, TDI, or any
> > > >> >> > > > of
> > > >> >> > > > > his buddies.  The shop I work for is
> > > >>taking a trip to
> > > >> >> > > Truk, on the boat
> > > >> >> > > > > Odyssey.  This vessel, at the
> > >encouraging
> > > >>of Bret
> > > >> >> > > Gilliam, allows *and*
> > > >> >> > > > > supports Deep air diving to depths of
> > > >>200, because
> > > >> >> > > Gilliam says in the
> > > >> >> > > > > ocean you are safe to that depth.  I
> > >DO
> > > >>NOT agree.  It is
> > > >> >> > > very clear
> > > >> >> > > that
> > > >> >> > > > > this guy is a moron, and the charter
> > > >>company is falling
> > > >> >> > > victim to his
> > > >> >> > > > > stupidity.
> > > >> >> > > > >
> > > >> >> > > > > As for the trip, I have suggested to
> > > >>several members of
> > > >> >> > > the trip that
> > > >> >> > > the
> > > >> >> > > > > answer is to limit the diving on the
> > >trip
> > > >>to depths of
> > > >> >> > > 130 or shallower,
> > > >> >> > > > or
> > > >> >> > > > > not go at all.  (Helium, which is
> > > >>available, is *very*
> > > >> >> > > expensive, so my
> > > >> >> > > > > thinking is that it makes more sense
> > >to
> > > >>not do the deep
> > > >> >> > > dives, rather
> > > >> >> > > than
> > > >> >> > > > > to pay for the He)  As for the other
> > > >>suggestions on the
> > > >> >> > > list regarding
> > > >> >> > > > > "diving to 140 or 150, mabey the 200
> > >foot
> > > >>dive...," in
> > > >> >> > > Truk, I also DO
> > > >> >> > > NOT
> > > >> >> > > > > agree with this.  This is the exact
> > >thing
> > > >>we all are
> > > >> >> > > trying to get away
> > > >> >> > > > > from, It is not safe, nor is it "OK,"
> > >to
> > > >>do these dives
> > > >> >> > > without the use
> > > >> >> > > of
> > > >> >> > > > > Helium.
> > > >> >> > > > >
> > > >> >> > > > > I am a firm supporter of the DIR idea
> > >and
> > > >>those who have
> > > >> >> > > put in the time
> > > >> >> > > > > and effort to make it work--If you
> > >want
> > > >>to do it DIR in
> > > >> >> > > Truk, you have 3
> > > >> >> > > > > choices:  Pay for the gas, stay above
> > > >>130, or refer to
> > > >> >> > > Rule #1.  Most, I
> > > >> >> > > > > would think would refer to Rule
> > > >>#1........
> > > >> >> > > > >
> > > >> >> > > > > Finally, I would like to point out
> > >that
> > > >>it is up to us as
> > > >> >> > > divers to get
> > > >> >> > > > the
> > > >> >> > > > > point across to these charters....deep
> > > >>air is not safe.
> > > >> >> > > I hope this
> > > >> >> > > post
> > > >> >> > > > > has cleared up this mess, and that
> > > >>everyone knows where I
> > > >> >> > > stand now.
> > > >> >> > > > >
> > > >> >> > > > > Best,
> > > >> >> > > > >
> > > >> >> > > > > Mike Strong
> > > >> >> > > > >
> > > >> >> > > >
> > > >> >> > > > --
> > > >> >> > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing
> > >list
> > > >>to
> > > >> >> > > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> > > >> >> > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
> > > >> >> > > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > --
> > > >> >> > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list
> > >to
> > > >> >> > > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> > > >> >> > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
> > > >> >> > > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > --
> > > >> >> > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list
> > >to
> > > >>`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> > > >> >> > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
> > > >>`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>--
> > > >> >>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
> > > >>`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> > > >> >>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
> > > >>`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or
> > > >>later you have to get in the
> > > >> >water"
> > > >> >Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East
> > > >>Coast & more
> > > >> >  Web Site  http://www.capt-jt.com/
> > > >> >Email     captjt@mi*.co*
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >
> > > >"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or
> > >later you have to get in the
> > > >water"
> > > >Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East
> > >Coast & more
> > > >  Web Site  http://www.capt-jt.com/
> > > >Email     captjt@mi*.co*
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
> > >`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> > > >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
> > >`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> > > >
> >
> > "You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in
>the
> > water"
> > Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
> >   Web Site  http://www.capt-jt.com/
> > Email     captjt@mi*.co*
> >
> >
> > --
> > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> >

"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the 
water"
Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
  Web Site  http://www.capt-jt.com/
Email     captjt@mi*.co*


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