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Scott wrote:

> am doing, and go give a sample, because one of the people we contract with
> requires that we test all our employees randomly, and they just called and
> gave the boss three names that they want tested. I have two hours, by law,
> to get it done (which gives the heads time to prepare themselves for the
> test). It pisses me off. I am being treated like a fucking criminal, where
> no evidence of any crime exists, but, I have to *prove* that I am not
> guilty. I have had no absenteeism, my work is spot on, I do my job very
> well.

Economics 101 at work.  The testing is cheaper than the high insurance
premium.  While I empathize, you have a CHOICE.  Your employer has a
CHOICE.  You can seek other employment and he can refuse the contract
and or insurance.  But neither of you do because you like/need the
income.  There are trade offs in life and this is one of them.


 I go into an office, take off my shoes and hat, turn my pockets inside
> out, unstuck my shirt and lift it so the nurse can see I have nothing in my
> armpits (feeling a lot like a fucking child now) and I go into a bathroom
> with a square hole in the door, and with a nurse listening outside the door,
> I pee in a cup, and hand it to her, all warm and foamy. I sign papers
> absolving the testing facility of any and all legal responsibility. Three
> days later, my boss walks out, shaking his head, and hands me the results of
> my piss test, which is clean. He blows 3 to 5 thousand dollars a year on

Cheaper than paying the high premium or losing the contract.


> this bullshit. Two machines down the line stands Al. Al's eyes look like
> bloody slits in his face, because he is fried. He is smiling at me, because
> he got away with it again. Al isn't exactly Lead Man, but he serves a
> purpose, and earns his keep. Me and the boss know the fucker is stoned, but
> he doesn't dare fire him, for fear of another lawsuit. If he follows the

Not true.  You don't need a reason to fire a drunk.  You can evaluate
his job performance an let him go on performance issues or lack of
same.  

> law, and offers Al drug treatment, he has to fire one or two people to get

Not familiar with a law that REQUIRES you offer drug treatment.  Hell,
employers don't even have to provide health insurance.



> the money to pay for the $15,000 cost of a treatment program, and what he
> gets in return isn't worth the 15 grand investment. Sure, Al can be gotten
> rid of, but then you have to train another one, and he passed the
> pre-employment piss test too (which is another $250).
> 
> I go home, pissed off at being humiliated and treated like a child, the boss
> calls me up, and we head to the bar. We find Al in the parking lot, smoking
> a double. He's not at work, and he just passed a piss test that day. Oh
> well.
> I get fucking plowed on my good, legal, Republican booze, and go home and
> pass out. I wake up loaded and hung over, still mildly drunk, and I go to
> work impaired. 

Its not ok.  You, just like Al, beat the system.  But one day it will
bite you.  If you were a GOOD employee in my operation I'd warn you once
maybe for showing hung over and send you home.  Second time you'd be
gone.  Even if you were my BEST employee.  Otherwise, when you leave the
chuck key in the lathe and it flies off and kills the guy 5 ft. away,
I'm NEGLIGENT because I knew it but ignored it because I was was worried
about my pocket.

But, that's OK because alcohol is legal, and I have no
> worry's about losing my job for being drunk and hung over, and, they aren't
> going to piss test me for alcohol.
> 
> I am a machinist by trade, and I cant do my job if I am stoned. Too many
> numbers and dimensions and things flying around in circles to keep track of
> to be loaded.

> My job is not life threatening, I am not transporting your



Depends on what you are making.  If it were motor mounts for aircraft it
would be.  



> family through the skies. Why the fuck is it that I have to be subjected to
> this humiliating invasion of my rights and body, when school teachers, law
> makers, cops, lawyers, judges, and everyone else doesn't? *And*, when this

You still have a choice.  You can leave.  But, obviously the tradeoff is
worth it to you or you would have left.  If enough people felt that way
the policy would be impossible to implement.  Obviously not enough
people agree with you.



> testing is of so obviously limited value? Heads laugh at the pee tests. Ask
> an ex con or parolee what they think of urine tests. They will laugh. They
> know a hundred ways to beat these tests. And us taxpayers pay for it all.


Sure they beat the tests.  Thats why they are in prison.  Because they
have the system all figured out.


> 
> Trey, when was the last time your boss ordered you to drop what your doing
> and go pee in the jar? Do you random test the members of your team?
> Why not?
> 
> And before you guys throw *anyone's* rights away, let me point out a couple
> things:
> 
> 1) They aren't *your* rights to throw away, they are also mine. If you want
> to toss some of your rights, far out, just don't touch mine.
> 2) These rights have been paid for, in full, with blood.
> 3) Next time *someone* decides that a right isn't needed, or "fuck their
> rights"
> lets hope they aren't talking about a right *you* would like to keep.
> 
> This is the right you are proposing we throw out the window:
>


When you can be arbitrarily stopped on the street and be drug tested I
will object.  You can't be so it's not an issue.  When you accept
employment, you sell a comodity, which in your case is your services or
expertise and the purchaser, your employer or ultimately his customer
has a RIGHT to buy what he wants.  If that happens to be a drug free
work force it is his privelege.


> Amendment IV
> "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
> effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
> and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or
> affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
> persons or things to be seized."
> 



You are SUBMITTING to the test.  You can quit.



> Pretty clear to me.
> 
> No one has any right to operate a vehicle in a way that endangers others, as
> in drunk driving. 50,000 deaths a year, right? What has urine testing done
> to address this issue? ZERO. How about a two drink limit at the bar? I can
> already hear them screaming all the way to Capitol Hill. Its all bullshit
> and economics.
> 
> Its a matter of education, not legislation.
> 
> Trey, why did you quit doing dope and drinking and driving? Because of fear
> of a urine test? Because you got busted? Or because you got a little
> smarter?
> 
> I am raising my two boys in a world *full* of dope, violence, and fucked up
> people, but they have no desire to do dope, or pack guns to school. Why?
> Because I took the time to make *sure* they are educated *truthfully*about
> these things. Anyone with a couple connected neurons can see, if presented
> with *truthful and accurate* information (pay attention school teachers),
> that dope is a one way street with a dead end. I know all about dope,
> because I have done almost everything there is. I quit because I woke up,
> not because I got busted, and certainly not because I was worried about a
> pee test.
> 
> If you think that piss tests guarantee your safety, you really have your
> head in the sand.
> 
> Its really a simple issue. People are going to get high. They always have,
> they always will. You cannot legislate morals or responsibility. What you



Fine.  I just want no part or interaction with it.



> can do is subject a whole bunch of people, most of them innocent, to a
> humiliating, degrading system that does nothing more than bust the really
> stupid ones,
> and create another industry to extract money from the working man and small
> business.
> 
> What should be done is the laws need to be changed so that when an employer
> feels he has a loaded employee, he can demand a random test, backed up with
> the reason *why*, such as always late, fucked up work, accidents, (its not
> hard to tell when a person is loaded), and if the employee refuses, he 

He can, so long as it is not applied in a discriminating or selective
manner.


is
> fired on the spot, with no legal recourse. If he tests positive, he "may" be
> offered one chance to keep his job, but he has to be willing to be subjected
> to random tests, at his own expense, until the boss feels the issue is
> settled. Or, he is simply fired, and when he uses the employer as a
> reference, the previous employer should be able to say "We fired him because
> he was loaded at work." without concern about lawsuit.
> 
> As related to divers and diving, anyone who dives under the influence is
> rolling dice. *If* one of these divers croaks, or causes another to be
> croaked,
> testing is done. If the dead diver tests positive, the family gets nothing,
> and the door to any lawsuits by the widow against the employer is closed. No
> life insurance payments, no lawsuits, no settlements out of court. If the
> tender of a dead diver is loaded, he gets to take care of the widow and
> children, after he gets out of jail for negligent homicide. This would be a
> far greater deterrent than a piss test.
> 
> But, that will never fly, because it would make people personally
> responsible for their actions, and we all know that just cant be.
> 
> I agree with you on pilots and such, however. If they fuck up, potentially
> hundreds can die. But again, what would have stopped the Exxon Valdez
> accident? The skipper was drunk, and there is no legislation to make him
> prove he is sober before he assumes command of the ship. There is no way to
> guarantee that a pilot is sober either. They or their remains can be tested
> after the accident, but then its a little late.
> 
> I wonder if the people who perform the lab work on my urine are tested?
> I know, for sure, that nurses and doctors are not tested, my brother is a
> nurse.
> Their Union wont allow it.
> 

> And Joe, idiots manufacture themselves. No one made me or allowed me to do
> the drugs I did. It was a choice I made. And it was my choice when I quit.
> No one made me quit.


So then your boys will have to learn the hard way as did you?  I
think/hope not.  The example you set and the example around them is what
will guide them.  If they see you can't function in a world that won't
tolerate drugs, they will be less inclined to do so. 

Joe Citelli


> 
> And we haven't even *begun* to address the issue of accuracy or false
> positive results.
> 
> If you guys cant see the problems in this, I am through talking.
> 
> Scott
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Citelli" <polarbea@sa*.ne*>
> To: <ben@wi*.co*>
> Cc: "Scott" <scottk@hc*.co*>; "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>; "Alton Hall, Jr."
> <ahall@da*.co*>; "Techdiver" <techdiver@aquanaut.com>;
<klind@al*.ne*>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 4:40 AM
> Subject: Re: Dive Master's Wanted
> 
> > So in other words, you'd be ok with getting on a plane flown by a pilot
> > who has been up for two days prior snorting cocaine because he stopped
> > it last night.
> >
> > I agree with the economics and with the freedom to do as I choose etc.
> > etc. but when I rely on someone to do a job, I want to know he is of
> > sound mind and body.  What about MY rights?
> >
> > I don't care about the supermarket clerk, but anyone in a resonsible
> > position, (read in care of other peoples safety), should be drug free.
> >
> > Your logic is the exact reason why when you call information for a
> > number, or you go into a department store NO ONE knows their job.  They
> > were all too busy frying their brains the night before or did so for so
> > many years that the residual effect is permanent.
> >
> > Nature hands us enough idiots.  We don't need to start manufacturing
> > them.
> >
> > Joe Citelli
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