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I could easily imagine getting tangled on something you could not cut in a wreck (cable, thick net, whatever), and having to take off your gear to disentangle. Is this just my overactive imagination, or is it a valid scenario? Not just an academic question, as I plan to be doing a lot of wreck diving in my dive career. Cam ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*> To: "Cam Banks" <cam@ca*.co*>; "dmdalton" <dmdalton@qu*.ne*>; "Steve" <se2schul@uw*.ca*>; "John McMillan" <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*> Cc: "Techdiver Mailing List" <techdiver@aquanaut.com> Sent: Monday, June 19, 2000 3:07 AM Subject: Re: Weights > I don't take off my gear. But, you need to be able to stay down with little > or no gas, as in an emergency , and you need to be able to get up by > dropping something. You guys figure it out. Also, for boat diving, you do > not want some massive overweighing on the gear so that if you take it off to > get into the boat, and there is some problem you will not lose it. Also, > you do not want some huge heavy rig while walking around on a boat at sea - > too stupid. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Cam Banks <cam@ca*.co*> > To: dmdalton <dmdalton@qu*.ne*>; Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*>; John > McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*> > Cc: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > Date: Monday, June 19, 2000 4:17 AM > Subject: Re: Weights > > > >I think I went through this with George a while ago, and the net effect of > >his answer was that you need to be able to take off your gear without being > >ridiculously buoyant. So, I'm shooting for about a 12-lb weightbelt as a > >compromise between the least weight on my waist possible and not being able > >to take off my gear. > > > >Of course, the dangers of "george said this" are manifold, but that's at > >least how I recall it. Basically, you also need to be wearing enough > weight > >to offset the buoyancy you will gain as you consume your gas, wherever you > >put it. > > > >Cam > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "dmdalton" <dmdalton@qu*.ne*> > >To: "Steve" <se2schul@uw*.ca*>; "John McMillan" > ><mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*> > >Cc: "Techdiver Mailing List" <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > >Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2000 9:19 AM > >Subject: Re: Weights > > > > > >> Couple of thoughts on this issue: > >> > >> If you are going to say you must be in a neutral state without you gear > on > >> (just you and your exposure suit) they you must figure what you need to > >> offset your exposure suit - consequently it can't be just a 6# weight > >belt. > >> > >> If you are diving trilaminate your buoyancy factor is consistent from the > >> surface to whatever depth you are going to dive - assuming you dive it > >right > >> and only add enough gas to take the pinch off. With this suit you will > >need > >> 16-30# based on your undergarments and your size. A 6# belt would not > >offer > >> much help in keeping you balanced without your other gear. > >> > >> If you are diving a neoprene drysuit or a wet suit, you will NEVER have a > >> balanced situation except at one depth. If you are neutral at the > surface > >> with a 20# belt you will be negative 10# at 33fsw. Not exactly > "balanced". > >> > >> The definition of "balanced" that I understand (and utilize) is that your > >> gear (with tanks between 0 & 500 psi) allow you to be neutral with no air > >in > >> your wings/BC at 10-20 ft. That way the only excess weight your wings/BC > >has > >> to provide lift for is the weight of the air in your tanks at the start > of > > > >> your dive, allowing you to dive smaller (=less drag) wings) (assuming you > >> dive trilaminate). > >> > >> Use your head. > >> > >> Dave > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*> > >> To: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*> > >> Cc: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > >> Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 11:30 PM > >> Subject: Re: Weights > >> > >> > >> > Hi John, > >> > > >> > I honestly can't think of a situation that would require you to take > off > >> all > >> > your gear underwater besides getting stuck in a restriction so small > >that > >> > you shouldn't have been diving it anyway. > >> > > >> > I think that the chances of getting into a situation needing full gear > >> > removal is so slight that it doesn't warrant a weight belt. > >> > > >> > Weight belts do have their place in diving, I still use mine quite > >> > frequently depending on the setup I'm using, I just never dive it with > >> more > >> > than 6 lbs now. Even getting rid of those 6 lbs makes a huge > difference > >> for > >> > comfort. > >> > > >> > So John, what likely scenarios require you to take all your gear off? > >> > > >> > Steve > >> > > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*> > >> > To: Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*> > >> > Cc: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > >> > Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 5:05 PM > >> > Subject: Re: Weights > >> > > >> > > >> > > "Gi Day" Steve. > >> > > > >> > > Steve you said it in your last comment "WEAR A BALANCED RIG". > >> > > > >> > > If and WHEN the shit hits the fan and the diver has no choice but to > >get > >> > out > >> > > of his gear. > >> > > If the diver independent of his rig is balanced, the task loading in > a > >> > > highly stressed situation will be significantly reduced. > >> > > If you need to add weight to your rig to achieve this balance then do > >> so, > >> > a > >> > > P/V weight in this case would be practical. > >> > > > >> > > The guys that don't take their gear off under water if its the only > >way > >> to > >> > > fix the problem DIE. > >> > > > >> > > I also hate wearing a weight belt, however it doesn't have to be too > >> heavy > >> > > as it is only adjusting the buoyancy of the diver not the Diver and > >the > >> > rig. > >> > > > >> > > Hoo Roo > >> > > Johnny Mack > >> > > Down Under. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > > From: Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*> > >> > > To: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>; Techdiver Mailing List > >> > > <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > >> > > Sent: Saturday, April 17, 1999 11:48 PM > >> > > Subject: Re: Weights > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Since when does a P/V weight constitute weights "all over the place > >> "??? > >> > > > > >> > > > Why is a weight belt more effective? Why are you taking your gear > >off > >> > > > underwater? > >> > > > Think about this... Pressed Steel 104s + Drysuit + SS backplate = > no > >> > > > additional weight! > >> > > > What do those guys do when they take off their gear underwater? > >They > >> > > don't. > >> > > > > >> > > > Comfort-wise, I hate weight belts with a passion. Getting rid of > it > >> > will > >> > > > provide more comfort, less wear on your exposure suit, and better > >> > airflow > >> > > > through your drysuit. > >> > > > > >> > > > Getting up off the bottom is easy... dive a balanced rig. > >> > > > > >> > > > steve > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > > > From: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*> > >> > > > To: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > >> > > > Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 7:30 AM > >> > > > Subject: Re: Weights > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > I read a lot of crap in the many posts that have been presented > >over > >> > the > >> > > > > last few days regarding weighting. Most of the suggestions have > >been > >> > > down > >> > > > > right bloody dangerous, stupid, and idiotic. Hey guys what > >happened > >> to > >> > > > > keeping it simple. We should weight ourselves with out tanks > >harness > >> > etc > >> > > > > attached, just negative. if we are still negative with the tanks > >and > >> > > > harness > >> > > > > etc on then we are correctly weighted. Using the traditional > >weight > >> > belt > >> > > > is > >> > > > > the most effective way of doing this. Have a bloody good think > >about > >> > why > >> > > > you > >> > > > > should be weighted this way before you make any comments. The > guys > >> > that > >> > > > want > >> > > > > to wear tank weights etc all over the place have a think about > >> > buoyancy > >> > > > > control if you have to take your gear off in water at depth. If > >and > >> > when > >> > > > the > >> > > > > shit hits the fan and you have to do this with weights all over > >your > >> > > gear > >> > > > > "good luck". > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Hoo Roo > >> > > > > Johnny Mack > >> > > > > Down Under > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > > > > From: John Walker <techdive@ea*.ne*> > >> > > > > To: <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > >> > > > > Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 10:11 AM > >> > > > > Subject: Re: Weights > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Hell Cobber they give me a sore back. I'd bet Mike Black > >(you > >> > > know, > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > guy that doesn't dive) would consider this a Type 2 DCS hit. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Dr. John Walker > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > > > > > From: Jim Cobb <cobber@ma*.ci*.co*> > >> > > > > > To: Al Marvelli <ajmarve@ba*.ne*>; Paul Braunbehrens > >> > > > > > <Bakalite@ba*.co*> > >> > > > > > Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > >> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 9:02 AM > >> > > > > > Subject: Re: Weights > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Weight belt for wetsuits. Weight belt fucks up the airflow in > >> your > >> > > > > drysuit > >> > > > > > > and is a failure point. I hate weight belts. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Jim > >> > > > > > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > > > > > > Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/ > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > From: Al Marvelli <ajmarve@ba*.ne*> > >> > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 03:24:40 -0400 > >> > > > > > > > To: Paul Braunbehrens <Bakalite@ba*.co*> > >> > > > > > > > Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com > >> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Weights > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I dont mean to flame Paul personally but I have to ask some > >> > simple > >> > > > > > questions > >> > > > > > > > here. > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Why is the weight belt not ideal? its cheap, easy to learn, > >> and > >> > > > found > >> > > > > > > > everywhere. > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > The belt gives you a built in failure indicator< if you are > >> > paying > >> > > > > > attnetion > >> > > > > > > > you can feel it slip, and thats easy to correct on your > own> > >> and > >> > > if > >> > > > > its > >> > > > > > > > under you crotch stap has a built in anti ditch safety. > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > and also > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > what is the facination with non ditchable weight? > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > especially on a rig that is limited to no stop diving by > >> > > > definition?? > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I can understand its significance on a deco dive, but you > >all > >> do > >> > > > > realize > >> > > > > > > > that if your worst fears come true and you undergo a > buoyant > >> > > ascent > >> > > > , > >> > > > > > you > >> > > > > > > > are merely performing skills practice?? That evey agency > has > >> > blow > >> > > > and > >> > > > > go > >> > > > > > as > >> > > > > > > > its last resort for ndl diving? > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > have any of you removed your weights during a dive? what > was > >> the > >> > > > > result? > >> > > > > > I > >> > > > > > > > had my belt off three times in front of the class i was > >> helping > >> > > with > >> > > > > > tonite, > >> > > > > > > > no problem with an al 80 with an al plate and a 1/4 suit > in > >> 12 > >> > ft > >> > > > of > >> > > > > > water, > >> > > > > > > > i had plenty of time to dump the bc and remain with my > >weight > >> > belt > >> > > > > with > >> > > > > > just > >> > > > > > > > a little effort. Are we all just not paying attention? > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > worried about buckle failure? wear two. > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > We are not even going to get into the pony bottle, but fyi > >my > >> > > > > > understanding > >> > > > > > > > of hogarthian means ultra minimal as in no reserve gas, > even > >> in > >> > > > > > overhead. > >> > > > > > > > and of course the bottle is unnecessary for anything, you > >can > >> > > either > >> > > > > > blow > >> > > > > > > > and go or you cant and if you cant you need a real > redundant > >> > > system, > >> > > > > not > >> > > > > > 13 > >> > > > > > > > freaking cu ft. This w/e i was forced to dive off the bow > >b/c > >> > the > >> > > > > > customers > >> > > > > > > > used up all the rack space with their pony bottles filled > >with > >> > > > nitrox > >> > > > > > too > >> > > > > > > > hot for the bottom< typical, they have all been hosed and > >> regard > >> > > dir > >> > > > > as > >> > > > > > > > internet bs>and then i had to endure the shop owners > >bitching > >> > > about > >> > > > my > >> > > > > > > > doubles being too much gear for the dives< which they were, > >> but > >> > i > >> > > > > needed > >> > > > > > > > them empty and gas costs money so i aint freaking wasting > >> it>so > >> > i > >> > > am > >> > > > > > ready > >> > > > > > > > for all comers on this pony bullshit. > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > You dont need a pony bottle unless you are solo diving > >without > >> a > >> > > > plan. > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Think it through people. > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Al Marvelli > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > PS if those two quarry guys dont send me snail addresses > ill > >> > never > >> > > > be > >> > > > > > able > >> > > > > > > > to mail them schedules and since i lost my inbox i dont > >> > havetheir > >> > > e > >> > > > > > > > addresses, so get back to me fellas. > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Paul Braunbehrens wrote: > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> OK, I went through tons of archives last night, trying to > >get > >> > to > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > > >> bottom of this. First, let me tell you my setup. I'm > >diving > >> a > >> > > > > > > >> backplate and wings, with a drysuit, and (for now) a > single > >> > tank > >> > > > and > >> > > > > > > >> a pony bottle. Leaving enough air in my suit so I can > >still > >> > move > >> > > > and > >> > > > > > > >> do a safety stop at the end of a dive, I need 17 pounds on > >my > >> > > belt > >> > > > (I > >> > > > > > > >> dive in cold water). > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> Right now this weight is on my weight belt, which is ok > but > >> not > >> > > > > ideal. > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> Perusing the archives, it seems the consensus is to make a > >V > >> > > weight > >> > > > > > > >> for at least some of this. Let's say it will weigh about > 9 > >> > > Pounds. > >> > > > > > > >> This still leaves 8 pounds. I could then either leave > that > >> on > >> > my > >> > > > > > > >> weight belt, or I could put it in the Halcyon weight > >pouches. > >> > I > >> > > > > > > >> assume that when I go to doubles I won't need most of it > >> > anymore? > >> > > > > > > >> Also, DiveRite sells a "trim weight" that will fit between > >> the > >> > > > bolts > >> > > > > > > >> on the backplate. I was thinking of this as an option. > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> Also, I read a lot of posts saying the canister light is 6 > >> > pounds > >> > > > > > > >> negative (or thereabouts). Mine is 1.5 pounds negative, > >> which > >> > > > means > >> > > > > > > >> I have to account for that weight somewhere. > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> One post I read which made a lot of sense, said that you > >> should > >> > > > have > >> > > > > > > >> about 5 or 6 pounds of ditchable weight (if any). When > you > >> > ditch > >> > > > > > > >> your weight you don't want to become so positive as to end > >up > >> > in > >> > > > > > > >> lunar orbit. > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> I would like to get as close to hogarthian as possible > >before > >> > > > moving > >> > > > > > > >> to doubles, so any help is appreciated. I'm even moving > my > >> > > > canister > >> > > > > > > >> back on my harness (I had it upside down and attached to > >the > >> > > > > > > >> backplate, but I find that it has a tendency to sit on the > >> > wiring > >> > > > > > > >> connection...not good). > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> Cheers, > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> -- > >> > > > > > > >> Paul Braunbehrens mailto:Bakalite@ba*.co* > >> > > > > > > >> http://www.daw-mac.com Mailing list for digital audio on > >the > >> > mac > >> > > > > > > >> -- > >> > > > > > > >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > >> > > > > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >> > > > > > > >> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > >> > > > > > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > -- > >> > > > > > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > >> > > > > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >> > > > > > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > >> > > > > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > -- > >> > > > > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > >> > > > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >> > > > > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > >> > > > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > -- > >> > > > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > >> > > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >> > > > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > >> > > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > -- > >> > > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > >> > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >> > > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > >> > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > -- > >> > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > >`techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >> > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > >`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >> > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > >> > > >> > >> -- > >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > >> > >> > > > >-- > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. 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