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Very nice post.  It's refreshing to read a question or point on this
list that is
put in such a well thought out way.  Such detail is necessary in order
to avoid
the almost instant flames that come from most questions.  On to my
thoughts...

I am not trimix certified.  I did, however, spend the best diving time
of my life
with the WKPP.  I spent almost every weekend with them in Tallahassee
for over a
year and can honestly say that they really do have their act together.
The
training that I received from more experienced team members would not be
possible
to duplicate in a trimix certification course.  I feel, no, I KNOW that
I am a
much better trained trimix diver than most who complete a certification
course,
regardless of the fact that they have a c-card and I do not.

Can you honestly say that in a 4 day course you can pass on more
information and
training about helium than I received in my 'year long course'?  We, as
humans,
are always learning and when we surround ourselves with the right kind
of people
on a regular basis we are much more likely to really learn and
fundamentally
understand  than we are when faced with a classroom environment.  Doing,
doing
right, and doing regularly are far more important than paying money to
take a
class and get a card.

I think the most important lesson that I learned while on the team was
to know
when to just shut up and listen (took me a while, but I get it now).
When there
are people that know so much about certain topics that are willing to
share this
information and teach you, free of charge, you really just need to
listen and
take it all in.  It's the best education you can possibly receive, but
no card is
involved.

-Erik


CaveDiving@ao*.co* wrote:

> To the list,
>
> I have been involved with this list and others for a while and have
learned a
> great deal of valuable information.  I have seen postings that I
thought were
> "right on!!" and others that I couldn't believe anyone could be so
stupid as
> to write them.  I believe some of the personalities are the kind of
people I
> would like very much to dive with and call "friend" and others I would
call
> "sick" (to put it mildly) and would quickly use my cave diver's
prerogative
> "to call a dive at any time for any reason" before entering any
overhead
> environment with them as a member of the team.  I believe in the basic

> concepts of DIR (not necessarily all of the details yet but I'm
working on
> it) and am slowly changing a number of the ways I dive in accordance
with
> this.  I have tried to bring some information and interesting
discussions to
> this list.
>
> Recently, I have started to see an opinion coming out on the lists
that
> bothers me a great deal.  It deals with the use of helium in breathing
mixes
> by divers untrained and uncertified in its use.  Basically it scares
the hell
> out of me so I thought I ought to bring it out in the open.  I am
afraid that
> we may be heading for some serious trouble if we don't take a stand
against
> this idea.  And I guess I'm looking for some support in my concerns.
>
> Now first, for those of you that don't know me, I need to indicate
that while
> I am certainly not a famous cave explorer or record setting deep
diver, I
> don't believe that I'm a particularly wimp diver either.  I am older
and so
> perhaps a little more conservative (I will be 60 this year), will
never make
> 3% body fat (or even 5 or 6% for that matter) and I do have an 80 mm
> stainless steel screw holding one ankle together.  But on the other
hand this
> winter I made my 2,000th dive, around half of which have been either
in an
> overhead environment or deeper than 200 feet, and my deeper dives this
year
> were below 400 feet.  I am an active PADI Master Scuba Diver Trainer,
NAUI
> Instructor Trainer, SSI Divecon Instructor, IANTD Advanced Nitrox
Instructor
> and Trimix Blender Instructor, ANDI Technical Safe Air 3 Instructor,
TDI
> Advanced Trimix, Full Cave and Rebreather Instructor, and a DAN Oxygen

> Provider and REMO Instructor.  I teach at Scuba Sciences in Phoenix in
the
> summer and the Akumal Dive shop in the Yucatan during the winter and
it is
> not unusual for me to make half mile swimming cave penetrations
(around 90
> minute dives without stage tanks) and have almost half of my air
remaining on
> exit, four or five days a week.  I am also involved in the exploration
of our
> "new little cave" in Belize in which we have laid around 3,700 feet of
line
> last winter and hope to continue more next fall.  I may be older and
not too
> strong, but at my last treadmill test I was told I was in the top 1%
of men
> in my age group.
>
> I say all this simply to demonstrate that I believe I am not a
"newbie" to
> technical diving and not afraid of "pushing my own limits" so to
speak.
>
> Recently I posted something on this list questioning whether it was
wise for
> someone with no formal training to be mixing and diving trimix.  And
the
> answers it drew really surprised me.  I figured it to be a no brainer;
if no
> training then don't do it.  One of the five basic rules of accident
analysis
> for cave diving deals with diving beyond my level of training.  And my

> experience with deep diving leads me to believe that clearly here too,
one of
> the leading causes (to me it seems to be THE leading cause) of death
is
> "cockpit error", "stupidity" or "overlooking something".  To me these
are all
> different ways of expressing "lack of training".
>
> Now I understand that training does not necessarily require attendance
in a
> class with a certified instructor and an official certification card.
But
> for most people I really believe that that's sure as hell the way to
go.  Of
> course there are highly experienced and extremely knowledgeable people
who
> can mentor a novice and teach him or her all that is needed.  But
unless
> there is some kind of special relationship between them, this
situation is
> not too common.  And when is the training over?  And how are we sure
that
> "all" of the required information has been covered?  These are
subjects which
> have been carefully considered in a well defined course.
>
> It's bad enough when some of the members of this list (based on their
> association with members of the WKPP team) argue that they don't need
formal
> training to use Helium, but I'm afraid that it's far worse when divers
with
> almost no access to other trained technical divers, start to do it.
For
> example, in a thread I've been following on rec.diver, the following
quotes
> typify what has been going on;
>
> 1)  "Instrokters like you are the problem.  Trimix is no different
than air.
> Forget what ever the stroke instructor told you about He and do some
> research."
>
> 2)  [From a diver with no trimix certification (S.A.B.)]   "I would
submit
> that diving air is a higher risk than mix."
>
> 3)  [When arguing against the need for a Helium use certification
(S.A.B.)]
> "I'm surprised you haven't launched into thread on the dangers of
> mixing/blending and the horror of O2 handling."
>
> 4)  [When arguing against the need for a Helium use certification
(S.A.B.)]
> "At this point I think a thread on the home servicing and testing of
> Regulators is in order. Or is that too the sacred province of ...."
>
> 5)  "Certification is only a means for those who don't want to spend
the time
> to
> learn something properly to believe they will be safe while diving."
>
> And another thing which I would think is really absolutely ridiculous
if it
> weren't so sad, is that some of these people are actually using DIR as
an
> excuse.  For example the statement "The advances in procedures and
equipment
> utilization developed by the proponents of DIR have made the
exploration of
> caves and open ocean much easier and safer."  This statement was made
in the
> context of explaining why a trimix certification was not needed.
>
> There are many more examples of this mentality but unfortunately, I do
not
> have them immediately available.  To me this is very similar to what
was
> going on in the early days of nitrox.  Most of the diving community
was
> saying "too dangerous", the people involved were saying "it's safe and

> terrific with the proper training" and the uninformed risk takers were
saying
> "I don't need no stinkin' training".  And these latter people were
using the
> same excuses as are being bandied around now.  "Too expensive",
"instructors
> only want the money", "my friend uses it and hasn't had a problem",
"You're
> just trying to scare us", "you want to make money cleaning tanks", "I
don't
> need anyone else to tell me how to dive", "there are too many BS
courses",
> etc.
>
> I would like to get some opinions from the folks on this list as to
whether I
> am overreacting or is there a potential problem brewing?  I have no
axe to
> grind other than trying in my own way, to make diving in general and
> technical diving in particular, a little safer.  Depending on the
information
> I receive, I'll either stay up on my horse or STFD & STFU.  Thanks for
your
> time.
>
> Take care and safe diving,        Scott



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