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No matter how tight the standards are, or how thorough the course, the =20
problem is still, at the end of the course, a diver is given a card which =20=
=20
says "the bearer is trained to dive to 300ft using potentially toxic =20
gases" or "swim to the back of any cave", with very little experience and =20=
=20
nothing to stop them but cash=2E They get kicked out on to an unsuspecting=20=
=20
world, free as a bird to do what they like, and most of us just let them =20
get on with it=2E
How many of us who have been diving mix a long time say to a new mix =20
diver "come dive with us, get a bit of experience"? Personally, hardly =20
ever, guilty as charged=2E How many new mix divers say "I don't know =20
anything, can I learn from you" after they get their certs? Again, all =20
those years ago, I didn't=2E Guilty on both counts=2E I'd done a mix course=
, =20
they told me I knew enough, why should I need any more? Now, I'm =20
experienced, why should I spend my time looking after novices? I shrug my =20=
=20
shoulders, I'm not an instructor, it's not my problem, and the culture of =20=
=20
blame claims another casualty=2E
It's easy to blame the instructors, and in a lot of cases its right=2E In =20=
=20
even more it is wrong, there are a lot of hardworking people out there=2E =20=
=20
Blame anyone but ourselves though=2E It is up to us to feel responsibility,=
=20
not palm it off on someone else=2E In the UK, the Cave Diving Group trains=20=
=20
its own members, without the need for instructors or agencies or =20
interference=2E There hasn't been a cave diving accident here for years=2E=20=
=20
Most of us are diving in little groups or cells, shouldn't it be down to =20
us to be showing "newbies" how to do it? After all it is our sport they =20
are endangering=2E
We can just say: the instructors are supposed to teach them=2E Yeah, but =20
the instructors cannot give them experience=2E That's our bag=2E And anyway=
, =20
all that does is have us shrug our shoulders and say "not my problem" =20
once again=2E Unfortunately, it is our problem, we either ease it or we do=20=
=20
nothing, just let the status quo roll on=2E If we want change then we have=20=
=20
to change it=2E We are the people doing the sport, we are the people who =20
should be changing it=2E Or maybe it isn't our problem after all=2E
Later,
S
=2E
-----Original Message-----
From: gaultmike@ne*=2Enet
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 11:04 AM
To: Don=2EMcinnis@in*=2Ecom
Cc: techdiver@aquanaut=2Ecom
Subject: Re: [RE: Is there a thing like inofficia
<< File: ENVELOPE=2ETXT >>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
=20
--
Don,
You said it yourself, Don=2E Their defense is that they "taught to their
agency's standards"=2E Why not raise the standards? I can assure you that=
=20
if
the instructor does not teach to the standards his/her ass *is* on the =20
line=2E
I don't know how it is in your market, but where I'm from it is very =20
difficult
to justify a high price on entry level training by running a more =20
thorough
course=2E Most of the consumers are shopping price and schedule =20
convenience and
most do not consider a longer class more convenient=2E With the current =20
low
standards, if one chooses to be more intensive they simply stear =20
unknowing
consumers to the strokes that produce more strokes=2E If the standards are
raised across the board, then the consumers get a thorough class anywhere =20=
=20
they
are taught to standards=2E Not teaching to the standards will subject =20
those to
Darwinism=2E And for the consumers that still are not willing to pay in =20
time
and money for a thorough class=2E=2E=2Ewell we don't want them anyway=2E
Mike
"Mcinnis, Don" <Don=2EMcinnis@in*=2Ecom> wrote:
I agree that it opens a door that is scary, but how do you stop them
otherwise? The only way to stop these guys from mass producing strokes is =20=
=20
to
make it unprofitable to do so=2E If they learn that charging a little more=20=
=20
for
intensive courses that turn out divers instead of strokes then we are all
better off=2E If they don't learn the lesson, they will be out of business=2E
Natural selection at its finest=2E
Don
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Phelps [mailto:tphelps@ph*=2Ecom]
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 5:43 PM
To: Mcinnis, Don; cmilz@Mi*=2EEDU; techdiver@aquanaut=2Ecom
Subject: RE: Is there a thing like inofficial training? was Re: Bondage
Wings
Good God-
You don't know what you are asking for=2E If you open any part of diving =20=
=20
to
litigation, you will be seeing lawsuits for gross negligence leading to =20
sea
sickness=2E
There oughta be a bullet for everyone who has ever said that "there =20
oughta
be a law"=2E
Ted
P=2ES=2E I don't disagree with your premise=2E It's just that your soluti=
on =20
will
turn out to be worse than the problem=2E
-----Original Message-----
From: Mcinnis, Don [mailto:Don=2EMcinnis@in*=2Ecom]
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 7:07 AM
To: 'cmilz@Mi*=2EEDU'; techdiver@aquanaut=2Ecom
Subject: RE: Is there a thing like inofficial training? was Re: Bondage
Wings
Claudia,
This is an industrywide problem as I am sure you are well aware of=2E The
instructors are turning weekend warriors out in all levels of =20
certification
and justifying it by saying " they are up to my agency's standards "=2E I
personally think that instructors need to be held liable for cases where
lack of instruction is the obvious cause=2E This would make for much better
classes when the instructor knew his ass was on the line for turning out
divers that really knew what they were being certified for=2E
Don
-----Original Message-----
From: Claudia Milz [mailto:cmilz@Mi*=2EEDU]
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2000 8:07 PM
To: techdiver@aquanaut=2Ecom
Subject: Is there a thing like inofficial training? was Re: Bondage
Wings
Just kicking off a discussion -
A diver with "intro to cave" cert is scootering back in a cave,
doubles on=2E This is not covered with his formal training=2E
For what he was doing, he would have needed cave3 with GUE, or a
scooter specialty on top of full cave=2E
True, this is far away from each other=2E He could have just gotten the
intro cert, average talented diver, *wrong gear*, average fitness,
and the panicking hints that there was a huge lack of experience and
therefore, an inability to make the right decisions (at that point,
it was too late to find out that some dives are not so easy)=2E
But indeed, the lack of the right cert doesn't tell you a whole lot=2E
Ehem, how many people have all the formal training they would
officially need for their diving?
I=2Ee=2E a PADI diver without a "deep diver" cert isn't supposed to go
deeper than 100'/30m=2E Which is a very good idea regarding narcosis=2E
But who sticks to that? It is more than common practice to dive
deeper than 60'/18m after the open water training=2E The chick (it
really was one) with the poorest health who barely made it through
the PADI exam (!!!) went to the Red Sea the weekend afterwards and
did 100'+ dives=2E Another girl had made her cert on vacation and died
on her 6th dive in cold low viz water, 110' deep=2E
Maybe people are in general more careful when it comes to technical,
esp=2E cave diving=2E But, some people find technical training overly
expensive and play around with gear, deco and whatever without any
clue=2E This is stupid to say the least, but it seems to be accepted,
as long as nothing happens=2E
So we have 3 cases:
a) formal training first, dives to gain experience
b) S#!+ on training
c) informal training
To make a long story short, how is c) regarded in the community?
The prospective student shows the talent, mindset, etc, and knows his
gear=2E Now an experienced diver *trains* him=2E The student is very
good, doesn't have a problem, maybe shortcuts a bit=2E
What if
1) something does happen on an 'inofficial' dive, even if
formal training wouldn't have made a big difference=2E
2) everything's fine, the former student wants to do dives like
this scooter dive in a cave, has knowledge and ability and - there
are people who wouldn't let him, since he lacks the cert=2E
What does the list think of liabilities and the moral
responsibilities here?
Thanks, and have a great weekend=2E
Claudia
> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:40:06 -0600
> To: cavers@ca*=2Ecom
> From: Grady Richardson <grichardson@wo*=2Eatt=2Enet>
> Subject: Re: Bondage Wings
> Like Dan and Lance and George said, it wasn't the bondage wings or
> scootering that did the guy in, it was the mind set that did him in=2E =20
The
> wings and the scooter were the outward appearances of his attitude=2E
>
> They were going "too far, too fast"=2E They were taking giant strides =20
with
> their experiance instead of small incrimental steps=2E This goes back to
mind
> set and attitude=2E
>
> Divers are taught in OW1 to dive within their limits (read =20
training)=2ETheir
> mind set allowed them dive way beyind their training=2E If they had more
> experiance, maybe they wouldn't have been in such a situation in the =20
first
> place=2E
>
> Grady
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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