Ted,

Attitude is the first step and you have accomplished that. This is what
keeps you welcome here, not who certified you or what your certification
level is. Trying to change the mindset of the agencies is something that
George, JJ, and many others have spent a lot of time trying to do and have
only accomplished in being labelled as heretics that are trying to undermine
the whole industry. 

The end result is that there are literally millions of divers out there that
are having to learn diving by the "on the job training" method because the
"training" they received was motivated by profits instead of turning out
qualified divers. And unfortunately the mistakes made by these "trainees"
will many times end their diving career at best and kill them at worst.

Don


-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Phelps [mailto:tphelps@ph*.co*]
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 9:38 AM
To: Mcinnis, Don; cmilz@Mi*.ED*; techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: RE: Is there a thing like inofficial training? was Re: Bondage
Wings


In this instance you must first change the minds of the certifying agency,
who will then implement quality control amongst the dive shops.  You have to
start from the top down.  I agree with Stacy about the difference not lying
with profit motivated vs non profit entities.  Non profit usually means that
the profits are taken out in the form of overly large salaries instead of
dividends.  Generally that is the major difference, not altruistic motives.

I'm a fairly recently certified PADI Divemaster with a total of 92 dives.
Believe me, I know my limitations, and this list is helpful in showing me
where to go for further training and/or practice.  Having come "out of the
closet" so to speak as one of those seemingly most despised by most of you,
I hope I'll remain welcome here.  I only took issue with something less
related to diving, and more related to a management problem, something I am
qualified to debate.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: Mcinnis, Don [mailto:Don.Mcinnis@in*.co*]
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 6:00 AM
To: 'Ted Phelps'; cmilz@Mi*.ED*; techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: RE: Is there a thing like inofficial training? was Re: Bondage
Wings

I agree that it opens a door that is scary, but how do you stop them
otherwise? The only way to stop these guys from mass producing strokes is to
make it unprofitable to do so. If they learn that charging a little more for
intensive courses that turn out divers instead of strokes then we are all
better off. If they don't learn the lesson, they will be out of business.
Natural selection at its finest.

Don


-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Phelps [mailto:tphelps@ph*.co*]
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 5:43 PM
To: Mcinnis, Don; cmilz@Mi*.ED*; techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: RE: Is there a thing like inofficial training? was Re: Bondage
Wings


Good God-

You don't know what you are asking for.  If you open any part of diving to
litigation, you will be seeing lawsuits for gross negligence leading to sea
sickness.

There oughta be a bullet for everyone who has ever said that "there oughta
be a law".

Ted

P.S.  I don't disagree with your premise.  It's just that your solution will
turn out to be worse than the problem.



-----Original Message-----
From: Mcinnis, Don [mailto:Don.Mcinnis@in*.co*]
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 7:07 AM
To: 'cmilz@Mi*.ED*'; techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: RE: Is there a thing like inofficial training? was Re: Bondage
Wings

Claudia,

This is an industrywide problem as I am sure you are well aware of. The
instructors are turning weekend warriors out in all levels of certification
and justifying it by saying " they are up to my agency's standards ". I
personally think that instructors need to be held liable for cases where
lack of instruction is the obvious cause. This would make for much better
classes when the instructor knew his ass was on the line for turning out
divers that really knew what they were being certified for.

        Don

-----Original Message-----
From: Claudia Milz [mailto:cmilz@Mi*.ED*]
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2000 8:07 PM
To: techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: Is there a thing like inofficial training? was Re: Bondage
Wings


Just kicking off a discussion -

A diver with "intro to cave" cert is scootering back in a cave,
doubles on. This is not covered with his formal training.
For what he was doing, he would have needed cave3 with GUE, or a
scooter specialty on top of full cave.

True, this is far away from each other. He could have just gotten the
intro cert, average talented diver, *wrong gear*, average fitness,
and the panicking hints that there was a huge lack of experience and
therefore, an inability to make the right decisions (at that point,
it was too late to find out that some dives are not so easy).

But indeed, the lack of the right cert doesn't tell you a whole lot.
Ehem, how many people have all the formal training they would
officially need for their diving?
I.e. a PADI diver without a "deep diver" cert isn't supposed to go
deeper than 100'/30m. Which is a very good idea regarding narcosis.
But who sticks to that? It is more than common practice to dive
deeper than 60'/18m after the open water training. The chick (it
really was one) with the poorest health who barely made it through
the PADI exam (!!!) went to the Red Sea the weekend afterwards and
did 100'+ dives. Another girl had made her cert on vacation and died
on her 6th dive in cold low viz water, 110' deep.

Maybe people are in general more careful when it comes to technical,
esp. cave diving. But, some people find technical training overly
expensive and play around with gear, deco and whatever without any
clue. This is stupid to say the least, but it seems to be accepted,
as long as nothing happens.

So we have 3 cases:
a) formal training first, dives to gain experience
b) S#!+ on training
c) informal training

To make a long story short, how is c) regarded in the community?
The prospective student shows the talent, mindset, etc, and knows his
gear. Now an experienced diver *trains* him. The student is very
good, doesn't have a problem, maybe shortcuts a bit.

What if
1) something does happen on an 'inofficial' dive, even if
formal training wouldn't have made a big difference.

2) everything's fine, the former student wants to do dives like
this scooter dive in a cave, has knowledge and ability and - there
are people who wouldn't let him, since he lacks the cert.

What does the list think of liabilities and the moral
responsibilities here?

Thanks, and have a great weekend.

Claudia


> Date:          Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:40:06 -0600
> To:            cavers@ca*.co*
> From:          Grady Richardson <grichardson@wo*.at*.ne*>
> Subject:       Re: Bondage Wings

> Like Dan and Lance and George said, it wasn't the bondage wings or
> scootering that did the guy in, it was the mind set that did him in. The
> wings and the scooter were the outward appearances of his attitude.
>
> They were going "too far, too fast". They were taking giant strides with
> their experiance instead of small incrimental steps. This goes back to
mind
> set and attitude.
>
> Divers are taught in OW1 to dive within their limits (read training).Their
> mind set allowed them dive way beyind their training. If they had more
> experiance, maybe they wouldn't have been in such a situation in the first
> place.
>
> Grady
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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