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The best case in point for this is the PADI instructor requirements. You need a whole 100 dives of experience and an IDC (which is a joke at best) and you are "qualified" to turn out a bunch of weekend warriors. At 100 dives most are still trying to grasp the concept that the bubbles travel up, so that's where the surface is. This is the mentality that is at the heart of the problem. Until all agencies are non-profit organizations, and therefore mass producing divers is not tied to the bottom line of the agency, it will be BUSINESS AS USUAL. And the deaths will continue to grow. Don -----Original Message----- From: Scott [mailto:scottk@hc*.co*] Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2000 6:50 PM To: Tech list Subject: Re: Is there a thing like inofficial training? There are some divers that should never leave the pool without an instructor, and no matter how much training they receive, are never going to be good divers. There are some divers that can do 180 feet on air with a garden hose and a bucket. There are some instructors that shouldn't teach anything to anyone. There are some instructors that should be drawing a check form the diving community as a whole, because of the absolute care and quality of what they teach. I think *all* you people that go diving in little holes in the ground, full of water are a couple fries short of a Happy Meal (TM). =;-) Personally, I know many people who mix and dive trimix, homebuilt rebreathers and such who have no more formal training than a nitrox course. I also know people with full trimix Instructor shingles that I wouldn't dive in a mud puddle with. The problem is this: Who is going to police diving? Who is going to be the one to say "No" ? And who decides who has that ability? When it comes to open water, you are on your own. You should be, and are, free to dive to whatever you think you are capable of. If you blow it, you gotta pay the fiddler. The other problem is that there is a lot of bullshit propagated by certification agency's, that has been shown time and time again to be contributory to diving fatalities, yet the certification agency refuses to change. So, what good is a shingle, really, in the first place? When you leave the surface, your life is in your own hands. What's between your ears is what decides. Shingles, c cards and all the training in the world wont help an egomaniac or idiot. Scott http://hood.hctc.com/~hsd/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Claudia Milz" <cmilz@Mi*.ED*> > To: <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > Sent: Friday, March 10, 2000 6:06 PM > Subject: Is there a thing like inofficial training? was Re: Bondage Wings > > > > Just kicking off a discussion - > > > > A diver with "intro to cave" cert is scootering back in a cave, > > doubles on. This is not covered with his formal training. > > For what he was doing, he would have needed cave3 with GUE, or a > > scooter specialty on top of full cave. > > > > True, this is far away from each other. He could have just gotten the > > intro cert, average talented diver, *wrong gear*, average fitness, > > and the panicking hints that there was a huge lack of experience and > > therefore, an inability to make the right decisions (at that point, > > it was too late to find out that some dives are not so easy). > > > > But indeed, the lack of the right cert doesn't tell you a whole lot. > > Ehem, how many people have all the formal training they would > > officially need for their diving? > > I.e. a PADI diver without a "deep diver" cert isn't supposed to go > > deeper than 100'/30m. Which is a very good idea regarding narcosis. > > But who sticks to that? It is more than common practice to dive > > deeper than 60'/18m after the open water training. The chick (it > > really was one) with the poorest health who barely made it through > > the PADI exam (!!!) went to the Red Sea the weekend afterwards and > > did 100'+ dives. Another girl had made her cert on vacation and died > > on her 6th dive in cold low viz water, 110' deep. > > > > Maybe people are in general more careful when it comes to technical, > > esp. cave diving. But, some people find technical training overly > > expensive and play around with gear, deco and whatever without any > > clue. This is stupid to say the least, but it seems to be accepted, > > as long as nothing happens. > > > > So we have 3 cases: > > a) formal training first, dives to gain experience > > b) S#!+ on training > > c) informal training > > > > To make a long story short, how is c) regarded in the community? > > The prospective student shows the talent, mindset, etc, and knows his > > gear. Now an experienced diver *trains* him. The student is very > > good, doesn't have a problem, maybe shortcuts a bit. > > > > What if > > 1) something does happen on an 'inofficial' dive, even if > > formal training wouldn't have made a big difference. > > > > 2) everything's fine, the former student wants to do dives like > > this scooter dive in a cave, has knowledge and ability and - there > > are people who wouldn't let him, since he lacks the cert. > > > > What does the list think of liabilities and the moral > > responsibilities here? > > > > Thanks, and have a great weekend. > > > > Claudia -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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