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Ben,
One of the biggest problems that I have ran into with computers is that
many of them default if you exceed the acsent rate sligthtly. Now you end
up with a profile that you may not have the thermal protection or the gas
supply to safley meet the computers obligation.
Other problems with a computor is you can't make ajustments in the water,
they are often less conservative that a square profile, they are expensive
compared to the alternative, accuracy is also questionable and the profiles
that they throw at you are all screwed up. You can't change conservatism or
algorithm either.
If you put faith in one of these than you have what is known as computor
narcosis.
John
John
----- Original Message -----
From: Ben Wiseley <wiseleyb@ho*.co*>
To: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Cc: <toddleonard@mi*.co*>; <quest@gu*.co*>; <ocklind@sw*.se*>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 7:13 PM
Subject: computers? 1 depth gauge, 2 time keepers, your mother in law...
> List,
>
> There was recently a post on the number of bottom timers to carry.
>
> Please explain. I've read the archives and don't get this one. This is
the
> only thing I really can't agree with yet on the whole DIR philosophy. I
> know it's not open to discussion. but can you at least explain? : )
>
> I'm confused about the whole computer issue with DIR. Assuming that deco
is
> just math (if it was something more JJ's program and all the other deco
> software programs would be pretty much useless) then what's the deal with
NO
> COMPUTER (which the bottom timer ultimately is). Tracking all your stops,
> bottom time, multi level, etc. is at best a pain in the ass and at worse
> really dangerous if you screw up. I know that the records that George is
> breaking change things... I'm wondering about more "normal" deco dives.
Or
> algorithms with parameters to take superman and average-man into
> consideration. Parameters can be entered into a computer.
>
> >From what I gather from the techdiver list it's mostly 1) you can't trust
> computers, 2) they're too conservative and 3) you don't learn deco... you
> just rely on the computer.
>
> Responses
> 1) that's absurd... carry two/three/etc. computers if you don't trust the
> battery. If you don't trust computers than you can't possibly trust the
mix
> you're breathing unless you have "Smillas sense of oxygen" :)
> 2) too conservative: then why not put an algorithm that works in it?
> someone, somewhere has a process that works for deco... George isn't
> reinventing the wheel everytime he dives... he's using some sort of
process.
> It's not rocket science to put a process in a submersible computer.
> 3) you don't learn: well - then you can use tables, etc and use the
computer
> as a backup... I learned fractal geometry in college -doesn't mean I still
> do it by hand. It seems obvious that all dives are planned (well - I
don't
> sit up at night planning a 30 minute dive to 50 feet... but you get my
> point). So you're still planning your dives on tables (or using software)
> but you have the added safety of having a computer doing all the
> calculations for you if you, for some reason, fuck up (the human brain is
> relatively useless under massive levels of stress - i.e. panic kills). If
> in panic it'd be better to have a computer telling you "move to 30 feet"
> than a human brain telling you "ascend immediately... I'm fucking dying".
> In an element where minutes mean hours in deco it seems that precision is
> the best way to go - and nothing (especially the human brain) is as
precise
> as a computer when it comes to counting seconds.
>
> I've also heard some stuff on legal issues. Well - then make them
> completely user programmable... you can't sue someone for shooting
yourself
> in the head (or at least those cases have a LOW success rate).
>
> George's comment that the best computer is between your ears is possibly
> true for NO TIME limit situations. I completely agree... locked in a room
> for hours/days on end with a library I could out think Deep Blue on
chess...
> but given 5 seconds... I'll loose every time (this is a hypothetical
> example... I've never actually gone against Deep Blue). Unless you can do
> this equation faster than the human brain can read there's an obvious
place
> for computers: 256*3/2+88^2*1.3=10451.2
>
> I know that WKPP has used tables and achieved amazing results. But I
> haven't heard a well thought out argument against computers yet (and I've
> read the archives). Given all the shit that can happen during a dive I'd
> think that having a computer tell you what to do (and what you've done)
> would be a nice addition to life. If NASA can go to the moon in 69 (which
> was really just the world's most complicated diving trip) then we can
> probably learn to use the much newer computers diving.
>
> If you:
> 1) Plan your dive
> 2) Bring the gas you think you need for the dive
> 3) Enter the gas you have on you for the dive into the computer
> 4) Go diving
> 5) Enter in parameters that are appropriate (fitness, temperature, etc.)
>
> Given that there's no reason why a computer couldn't come up with an
active
> dive plan that would be as good or better than the table version.
>
> Again. not trying to tell anyone how to do anything. But - if there's
> something in the archives that covers this I couldn't find it. I'm just
> curious as to why technology isn't DIR.
>
> -ben
>
> ps. BS/MS in computer science has probably skewed my thought process on
> this.
>
>
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