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From: "Ben Wiseley" <wiseleyb@ho*.co*>
To: techdiver@aquanaut.com
Cc: toddleonard@mi*.co*, quest@gu*.co*, ocklind@sw*.se*
Subject: computers? 1 depth gauge, 2 time keepers, your mother in law...
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 03:13:17 GMT
List,

There was recently a post on the number of bottom timers to carry.

Please explain.  I�ve read the archives and don�t get this one.  This is
the 
only thing I really can�t agree with yet on the whole DIR philosophy.  I 
know it�s not open to discussion� but can you at least explain?  : )

I'm confused about the whole computer issue with DIR.  Assuming that deco is 
just math (if it was something more JJ's program and all the other deco 
software programs would be pretty much useless) then what's the deal with NO 
COMPUTER (which the bottom timer ultimately is).  Tracking all your stops, 
bottom time, multi level, etc. is at best a pain in the ass and at worse 
really dangerous if you screw up.  I know that the records that George is 
breaking change things... I'm wondering about more "normal" deco dives.  Or 
algorithms with parameters to take superman and average-man into 
consideration.  Parameters can be entered into a computer.

From what I gather from the techdiver list it's mostly 1) you can't trust 
computers, 2) they're too conservative and 3) you don't learn deco... you 
just rely on the computer.

Responses
1) that's absurd... carry two/three/etc. computers if you don't trust the 
battery.  If you don't trust computers than you can't possibly trust the mix 
you're breathing unless you have "Smillas sense of oxygen" :)
2) too conservative:  then why not put an algorithm that works in it?  
someone, somewhere has a process that works for deco... George isn't 
reinventing the wheel everytime he dives... he's using some sort of process. 
  It's not rocket science to put a process in a submersible computer.
3) you don't learn: well - then you can use tables, etc and use the computer 
as a backup... I learned fractal geometry in college -doesn't mean I still 
do it by hand.  It seems obvious that all dives are planned (well - I don't 
sit up at night planning a 30 minute dive to 50 feet... but you get my 
point).  So you're still planning your dives on tables (or using software) 
but you have the added safety of having a computer doing all the 
calculations for you if you, for some reason, fuck up (the human brain is 
relatively useless under massive levels of stress � i.e. panic kills).  If 
in panic it'd be better to have a computer telling you "move to 30 feet" 
than a human brain telling you "ascend immediately... I'm fucking dying".  
In an element where minutes mean hours in deco it seems that precision is 
the best way to go - and nothing (especially the human brain) is as precise 
as a computer when it comes to counting seconds.

I�ve also heard some stuff on legal issues.  Well � then make them 
completely user programmable... you can�t sue someone for shooting yourself 
in the head (or at least those cases have a LOW success rate).

George�s comment that the best computer is between your ears is possibly 
true for NO TIME limit situations.  I completely agree... locked in a room 
for hours/days on end with a library I could out think Deep Blue on chess... 
but given 5 seconds... I�ll loose every time (this is a hypothetical 
example... I've never actually gone against Deep Blue).  Unless you can do 
this equation faster than the human brain can read there's an obvious place 
for computers:  256*3/2+88^2*1.3=10451.2

I know that WKPP has used tables and achieved amazing results.  But I 
haven't heard a well thought out argument against computers yet (and I've 
read the archives).  Given all the shit that can happen during a dive I'd 
think that having a computer tell you what to do (and what you�ve done) 
would be a nice addition to life.  If NASA can go to the moon in 69 (which 
was really just the world�s most complicated diving trip) then we can 
probably learn to use the much newer computers diving.

If you:
1) Plan your dive
2) Bring the gas you think you need for the dive
3) Enter the gas you have on you for the dive into the computer
4) Go diving
5) Enter in parameters that are appropriate (fitness, temperature, etc.)

Given that there�s no reason why a computer couldn�t come up with an active 
dive plan that would be as good or better than the table version.

Again� not trying to tell anyone how to do anything.  But � if there�s 
something in the archives that covers this I couldn�t find it.  I�m just 
curious as to why technology isn�t DIR.

-ben

ps.  BS/MS in computer science has probably skewed my thought process on 
this.


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