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George and I had an exchange over email regarding my normoxic trimix course
post and he suggested I post it to the list, so here it is. Oh, and Merry
Christmas folks.
> At 12:29 AM 12/24/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >Tony, is "normoxic" always 21%, or is there some new discovery in the
> >gas laws and phsyics that preclude useing the correct mix?
>
> "Normoxic" is the dumb ass name that some training agencies have decided to
> give trimixes that aren't hypoxic. Well, that's not exactly true,
> according to IANTD and to one instructor that used to post quite often to
> this list, it's for trimixes that contain no less than 20% O2.
>
> >I don't get it.
>
> Me neither. Spent some time on the phone with Tim O'Leary early this year
> when I wanted him to explain to me why NAUI required SO MANY deep air dives
> to be eligible for their trimix course. He was very sympathetic and agreed
> it didn't make a whole lot of sense to him either. He said changes were in
> the works, but that right now his hands were tied. The NAUI technical
> instructor that I had contacted about teaching the course told me the deep
> air dives were required so the candidate could see first hand how the gas
> pressure/volume relationship works deeper than 130'. This made ABSOLUTELY
> NO SENSE to me. I asked if the formula changes past 130'... "no". When I
> said that gas laws shouldn't be different for air and trimix, he told me
> that he needed to know that the candidate could handle air past 160'. I
> don't pretend to know what that's supposed to mean.. we didn't use NAUI or
> him. I had almost the same discussion with IANTD regarding their
> deep air requirements for full trimix. They told me that past 130', if you
> start breathing hard the gas can go real quick. When I told them that
> didn't make any sense to me why they would have to be breathing air to
> figure that out; and that, besides, someone that hasn't already figured
> that out has no business taking a technical level course to begin with, they
> told me that those were the standards and they weren't going to change.
C'est la vie. As far
> as I can figure out, IANTD is still the best option we have available up
> here. At least they don't have to dive deep air before they can dive mix.
> Unfortunately, the good instructors that we do have up here have to teach
> to standards that don't make sense, at least to me.
>
> >Is this just a course that was stuck in as an alternative pick instead
> >of requiring deep air for trimix, like slaw an fries as opposed to baked
> >beans and corn bread with the ribs, or is this a real course. Tell us
> >about it, in your own words - no dislexic malapropisms ("standards") or
> >Tai Chi breathing .
>
> I'm not teaching the class, I'm one of the people taking it, so I can only
> say what I hope the class is going to be about. In my own words, this is
> what I hope the class is going to be about:
>
> Gear configuration/Bottle marking/stage rigging(although two of us taking
> the class showed up for cave one this past Feb. with our gear almost dead
> nuts perfect. Ted Cole had no suggestions, JJ told us to take off the
> breakaway O ring holding the snap to the pressure gauge and tie the snap on
> with cave line instead. Maggie and I also already learned about proper
> stage rigging from Steve Serres and Ted Cole, most of the others in the
> class learned it from DIR II); Proper gas selection; He deco theory; Gas
> switching techniques; Dive planning; Contingency planning and techniques
> for open water wreck dives; team work.
>
> I hope it's going to be a lot like a GUE tech II course (described to me by
> GUE reps as a "best mix to 200' course") done on our wrecks. It's also
> about getting the card that'll allow people that already have a lot of this
> stuff down- and some have already been diving mix for a year- to buy trimix
> from Brownie's, E.E., or where ever else they might go.
>
> I looked HARD and did a lot of research to find someone up here that I
> thought might be able to teach a good class, and J.D. by far had the best
rep.
>
> BTW, I've gotten TONS of good information from Bob Sherwood, he's always
> been extremely helpful and forthcoming, and I've been after him for 2 years
> to either come down here or have our customers come up to him to take GUE
> Tech II, but between his shop, the project, the Brittanic and logistics, it
> never happened. Ask him. Ask JJ how long I've been complaining about the
> lack of available GUE instructors up here. I do push GUE courses here, and
> I intend to bring people south this coming year for Cave one. At least two
> of us are also going to take a GUE full trimix course in the fall of
> 2000. Damn, two of us in this class hold two of the first GUE cave one
> certifications and recently finished cave two.
>
> >I sounds to me , by the tone of your message, that you are planning on
> >getting out the apples and oranges and Mr. Tree, and trying to explain
> >trimix to the boat monkeys up there. True or false? Do you use puppets
> >in this show, or is it like that Mr. Bill and Sluggo stuff on Saturday
> >Night Live?
>
> That's J.D.'s job, although only one of 'em is a boat monkee (and it says
> so on the bottom of her doubles), but she's no stroke. As for the rest of
> us, why don't you come up here and dive on the Wahoo like you've been
> threatening and find out. Bring your puppets if you think you'll need them,
> but remember there's a charge for bubble watchers. Bananas are always
> welcome.
>
> Look, as long as I have any say about it, Stingray won't hold any classes
> that require or promote the idea that it's acceptable to exceed an END of
> 130'. I'm trying to offer an alternative to deep air for NE divers that
> want to dive deeper wrecks, because nobody else here has. DIR and GUE make
> sense to me and I feel better about perpetrating that than I do anything
> else. I figure offering this class with a good instructor is as close as
> we can come up here right now.
>
> Sincerely,
> Tony Thomas
>
> >Tony Thomas wrote:
> > >
> > > If anybody's interested, we (Stingray Divers) are currently running
what I
> > > think is the first normoxic trimix course given in the NY/NJ metro
> > > area. It's an IANTD course and J.D. Selser of Sartek is the instructor.
> > > Prerequisites for the class are listed on Stingray's and IANTD's web
> > > sites. Any interested parties please contact me via email or phone.
> > > Normally I wouldn't post something like this to the list, but given the
> > > rarity of a class like this being held up here, I thought it was
warranted.
> > >
> > > Tony
> > > http://www.stingraydivers.com
> > >
> > > At 11:06 PM 12/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > >At the risk of being flamed can someone explain the logic of forcing a
> > > > diver
> > > > >interested in going onto trimix into doing deep air dives???????
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >There is absolutely no good reason for this and largely in response to
> > > >pressure from members of this list (George Irvine in particular) IANTD
> > > >developed an intermediate trimix course that takes the place of advanced
> > > >nitrox as a prerequisite to full mix and eliminates air/nitrox diving
> > > >beyond recreational depths. GUE obviously doesn't require any deep air
> > > >but may not have instructors available in your area. Check www.gue.com
> > > >to confirm.
> > > >
> > > >Best -
> > > >
> > > >Bill Wolk
> > > >
> > > >On12/21/99 3:03 PM, deep-gasdiver@uk*.ne* wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >To get onto a trimix course one must first undertake a nitrox
course, in
> > > > >some
> > > > >instances two or three nitrox courses (basic, advanced and extended
> > range)
> > > > >which basically in the deeper dives has no benefit other than
> > accelerated
> > > > >decompression via the use of nitrox or pure 02 during deco. A perfect
> > > > >example
> > > > >is a course covered in an article in the latest "Dive" magazine, this
> > > > >editorial
> > > > >explains how students on the divers lodge basic (TDI) trimix course
> > > > >simulate a
> > > > >trimix dive to 45m dive with air as the back gas ???????????? What
logic
> > > > >is that
> > > > >
> > > > >If trimix or Heliox is the way to go why subject students or divers
> > > > >interested
> > > > >in improving their diving safety and enjoyment to what is
> > effectively deep
> > > > >air
> > > > >diving. If He is safer than N2 then why should a diver not be able
> > to use
> > > > >say a
> > > > >21/12 or 21/18 mix ( or other ) to depths up to say 50 - 60 metres
> > without
> > > > >going through a nitrox course? If they want to use nitrox or pure
02 for
> > > > >deco
> > > > >then they should undertake a course to cover the use of higher
pp02 as a
> > > > >deco
> > > > >gas
> > > > >
> > > > >I realise and understand that if a diver wishes to do deep trimix
dives
> > > > >which
> > > > >involve significant planning and skills then a greater level of
> > experiance
> > > > >and
> > > > >maybe an intermediate qualification is required before taking an
> > advanced
> > > > >trimix course but access to He should be made easier at the 30 - 60m
> > ranges
> > > > >
> > > > >Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >----------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > >
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> >
Tony Thomas, manager, Stingray Divers
tony@st*.co* http://www.stingraydivers.com
phone: 718-384-1280
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