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Will, I was wrong - it was reality, now I do not get that effect at all. With you guys, you are dropping too fast ( and doing things that your mind would tell you is wrong if you let it) . My diving is more horizontal, and adftter all of these years and dives, no longer seems too threatening to me. Doing what I was doing at the time was uncomfrotable and I perceived the risk when "heliumed". I intentionally dove the nitrogen to deal with the Turner Sink dives where it was just me and Gavin, no safeties, no backups, and no support, laying line in a syphon at 290 on the ceiling in ten foot vis. This was the only way to deal with that stupidity. Now we do it right, and the "speedy" effect as you call it is what we like . For you guys I would suggest just dropping more slowly, you have ccr's there is not a gas issue here. William Smithers wrote: > > On Mon, 15 Nov 1999 kirvine@sa*.ne* wrote: > > > If you compare the original Navy scuba 21% oxygen heliox on heliox > > tables to the air on air tables, the difference was that the helium > > tables started one or more stops deeper than the air. > > > > The reality is that the air tables should have started at the same stop > > as the heliox. > > > > George, > > I realize that Techdiver has, of late, become the "Official > George Irvine and WKPP/DIR dick-sucking forum", but really, to > suggest that the "helium willies" is a figment of the imagination > is point-blank ignorant. > > I'm the first to admit that more helium is better than less, > and that modern deco research shows that Buhlmann was > probably wrong, in that helium deserves less conservative > treatment than has been classically supposed. > > But still, I, and many other divers will tell you > of their first-hand experience with getting overly-wired > and uncomfortable on pure heliox below about 250-300fsw. > > I should add that portraying the couple or three ATA > of nitrogen that's added to counteract the effect > as being "narced" is ludicrous, as we're talking > an effective equivalent narcotic depth of well under > 100fsw. > > The truth is that better than half of the divers > I've spoken with who have been deep on heliox have > reported unpleasant "speedy" side effects. The other > half haven't - yourself being counted among the "speedy" > crowd. If you'd care for me to pull archives, I'd be > happy to repost your words. And I'm sorry, you can try to > retrofit as much 20-20 hindsight as you'd > like, but your original posts on the matter were amazingly > clear and present. > > Regards, > > -Will > > > > Also keep in mind the source - the Navy used to "roll" the tanks in a > > rack for six hours prior to using them. We use them as fast as we can > > get them to the water. > > > > Sometimes these old beliefs get passed on for quite some time before > > they get corrected. > > > > > > Scott wrote: > > > > > > > The "willies" is bullshit - reality it what is scary, and helium gives > > > > you just that - too much reality. Anyone who is doing ridiculous diving > > > > or chamber experiments SHOULD be concerned - very concerned. > > > > Anesthesizing them with nitrogen is not the answer. > > > > > > Affirmative! Ron said the nervousness was because your body and mind *knew* > > > it was not supposed to be operating under these parameters. He also said > > > that HPNS was really affected by the rate of compression. That, after a > > > couple days at 850, they would smooth out a bunch. On the rapid drops they > > > did, HPNS was so bad that doing anything usefull after hitting the bottom > > > was out of the question. "You couldnt even hold a cup of coffee." > > > (important if you're a swabbie!) =;-) > > > > > > > Helium and heliox require shorter , not longer decompressions. What the > > > > real story is that the "air" tables are all wrong, and should be longer > > > > than trimix ( all things being equal ) and in fact air should require > > > > the deeper stops that helium seems to ask for in the current "models" in > > > > use. The misconcpetion is then that high helium needs more deco. The > > > > more I have, the less I do. > > > > > > So, if I get all this correctly, there are no accurate Air, He02 or trimix > > > tables, born out by the *fact* your > > > guys are still ambulatory and here to post. > > > > > > Now, we all understand that you *do not* represent the typical diver. > > > > > > So, with that in mind, how do *we* mortals generate safe, accurate and > > > reasonable > > > He02 tables? > > > > > > > Ask our deco geeks what they have obvserved with me, Mee, Trout, Rose, > > > > JJ, Werner etc. for confirmation of this, and this is born out by > > > > doppler and blood tests, not supposition and bullshit. > > > > > > Any of you deco geeks reading this? > > > > > > > As for Jablonski's choice of gas for the Britannic or any other dive, it > > > > is a function of the availability of a booster pump only. > > > > > > <snip> > > > > > > Understood. This is/was the basic reason for trimix in the first place, as I > > > understand it. > > > 02, He, HP air to top. > > > > > > <snip> > > > > > > > Scott, it is real simple: 1) you need to be as clear as possible when > > > > diving - heliox gets that done, 2) you need a fast gas that does no > > > > damage of its own ( as nitrogen does ) and is actually inert - that is > > > > helium, and 3) you need to have no preconditions ) inluding excess > > > > adipose tissue ), you need good vacularization and perfusion ( i.e. good > > > > genetics), you need to be in good cardiovascular condition, and you need > > > > to be free of any injury or damage prior to diving, and you need to have > > > > no pulmonary reactions to these stresses, no blockage or swelling of any > > > > gas spaces, and you need to be armed with real information, not drooling > > > > bullshit like this "helium willes" nonsense. > > > > > > Can we use the Buhlmann tables/algorithm for He02 or should we be looking > > > elsewhere? > > > > > > The Navy tables also call out longer deco on He02. *That* doesn't make > > > sense. > > > > > > Scott > > > > > > -- > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > -- > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. 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