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Gordon,
I don't know how long it will take for this message to reach techdiver, =
I can't wait all day for a message approval request to come back.
Gordon, I fully understand your confusion. Unfortunately there are many =
unanswered questions that I, nor anybody else can explain. This is an =
occurrence with no witnesses and what little evidence is available can =
be interpreted more than one way.
We feel that our interpretation is the most likely scenario, based on =
everything we have gathered. I will try to answer your questions =
directly.
1). If the incorrect arrow was in place as stated, is there any =
evidence the divers marked it with their arrow pointing out in the =
correct direction as they encountered this miss-directed arrow? They =
were no doubt trained to do so, and they certainly had to pass this =
incorrect arrow. Did they have their own arrows on their rigs? Each =
diver? Is it possible one of them placed or moved this arrow? Was it =
removed and checked for fingerprints?
Reply; There is no evidence at this arrow other than it being on the =
line and pointing in the wrong direction.
I'm sure they were trained as you say, that doesn't mean they used the =
training or even saw the arrow until they were exiting and already in =
trouble. Gordon, we have no way of knowing their thought process or how =
they proceeded. We have no way of knowing what may have happened before =
they even got to this arrow.
Yes, they had arrows on them, they also had clothes pins on surgical =
tubing that they left in the back of the truck. The only thing we are =
sure of is they didn't use the clothes pins, because they were in the =
truck.
Sure, one of them could have moved this arrow or turned it around. They =
are not here for us to ask them which one did it. No, it was not removed =
and checked for finger prints. For one, it is doubtful that a diver with =
fingers wrinkled from water exposure would even leave a readable print =
and two, all that would tell us is that they touched it. What could be =
surmised from that ??
2). If the line did not blow downstream as previously posted, why did =
they deploy two reels? If primary reels, we're talking about a lot of =
line out in the cave so why the big gap. Were the reels tied end to end, =
or what?=20
Reply; Gordon, I did not post that the line was blown downstream. Will =
Smithers posted that from New York.
Not from Florida, not from Madison county, and not after investigating =
the accident scene first hand.=20
As I stated in the last post, it is tied off just outside of the =
restriction. Why did they deploy two reels ?
The reels were tied off to the same spot, the third was laying on the =
floor. I don't know why because there is no one left to ask. =20
3). Are we not concerned with the possibility these guys broke the line =
on the way in and were not even aware of the fact?=20
Reply; Of course this is a possibility, and likely. But how do we know =
if this is what happened ??=20
4). How do you explain two divers getting tangled up in line that =
apparently was in the restriction? Would that have not been most likely =
just the first diver? I'd like someone to explain this one to me. Didn't =
they have one or more knives and where were the knives located on their =
rigs?
Has anyone attempted to reenact this sequence? Reenactment is a basic =
technique of investigation. Were these divers so tangled up they =
couldn't swim? Hard to believe that's possible. And it is not clear to =
me if the diver on the ceiling, becoming buoyant after removing his gear =
was entangled, or was it his gear that was entangled? That really struck =
me as strange. Dell's last report mentions the fact "they stuck =
together," I read that as they were tied together. Big difference when =
it comes to attempting to assess the mental state of a couple of divers =
in trouble. And 500 lbs. left one set of tanks-why? =20
Reply; I can't explain how both divers got tangled up and I don't know =
if they encountered the slack line in the restriction or after they =
cleared it. How do we know which one was the first diver ?? They had =
cleared the restriction, and weren't exactly in some formal formation. =
Yes, they had knives. Again, I don't have a clue why they didn't use =
them. In my first post it clearly states how they were found, and that =
both divers and the removed gear were all entangled as a group. If =
someone can assess the mental state of these two deceased divers, I'm =
all ears. Having been involved in a fatality of my exploration partner, =
I can tell you that it is indescribable.=20
500 lbs left in one set of tanks, again we have no way of knowing what =
transpired during air sharing or an attempt at air sharing. =20
5). What happened to the missing line upstream of the restriction? Was =
it tired off somewhere? Is it still there? Where? Sorry to keep coming =
back to this. I mean, did it swim upstream somehow? The first report =
from Dell said the line, once unentangled from the divers had been taken =
through the restriction and it didn't reach the standing end of the =
remaining line? Why? Again, where was the missing line? What was the =
distance upstream from the restriction to the first existent tie off on =
the permanent line. Were there any other tie offs between this point and =
the upstream existent tie off. What was the total length of the =
permanent line recovered and what was the total length of the line that =
was involved in the entanglement?
Reply; The upstream line was simply laying slack just outside of the =
restriction. When Mike attempted to go through during recovery, with the =
downstream slack, he stated he didn't have enough. If he encountered =
resistance, good sense told him to just tie on and go through with his =
reel. He didn't need to back up again and trash our visibility during =
investigation. It has since been reconnected. We did not measure the =
slack line, that would tell us nothing.
7. What evidence is being used to support the possible conclusion that a =
knot joining two sections of line failed and therefore caused this =
accident. What types of knots are employed in this immediate area? =
Overhand, reef, what? And doesn't it stretch credibility that a knot =
that had held for who knows how long would just fail after they passed =
it?
Reply; Again, someone elses post mentioned knots, not mine. My original =
post states the line was severed.
This makes the rest of the questions irrelevant.
Gordon,=20
As you can see, we don't have all the answers and never will. There is =
no one left alive to answer the questions you have.
I'm not sure what your trying to accomplish with the WAK 2 comment and =
Florida Law enforcement, but frankly it offends me.
A body recovery is considered a crime scene until proven otherwise. Law =
enforcement depends on our knowledge base and experience to tell them as =
best we can what happened.
Due to typical dive site hearsay, we were under the impression these =
guys were on scooters and had gone into the Courtyard. A difficult dive =
in itself, much less bring out two bodies and gear.
We spent much time and preparation, fearing and preparing for an =
incredibly difficult recovery.
As it was, Lamar and I spent 91 minutes and 3 trips back to the scene in =
near zero visibility to get everything out.
We don't go in and yank deceased divers out without careful =
consideration of all involved, and do our best to figure out EXACTLY =
what happened for the good of all.
I have already stated this is no mystery, simply many factors that all =
played a role in an awful tragedy.
You can look at several factors and scenarios and see human error.
I guarantee every cave diver, has made the same errors at one time or =
another in our career.=20
Unfortunately, a combination of these type of errors and other factors =
took the life of these two men.
Dell Motes
Dive Rite
117 W.Washington St.
Lake City, Florida 32055 =20
www.dive-rite.com
=20
=20
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: gordonjr <jrgordonsenior@em*.ms*.co*>
To: Dell Motes <dell@di*.co*>
Date: Tuesday, October 26, 1999 1:53 AM
Subject: Re: Madison Blue Fatalities
=20
=20
To the list,
=20
Dell, thanks for the additional post. Unfortunately this new data =
just adds to my confusion. I'm asking these following questions because =
I don't understand, and not because I'm trying to be a smart ass or =
question your report. Your contributions to diving and education are =
numerous and stand on their own merit.=20
=20
When I look at the resources being committed, and the depth of the =
investigation being performed tonight in South Dakota it makes me =
wonder: do Richard Siaba, Kevin Lymn, their fellow cavers, and their =
families deserve any less?
=20
Accident Analysis should start with a really thorough Accident =
Investigation. I don't know what Florida Police do or don't do in diving =
related accidents (remember WAK 2), but what I've read so far seems to =
be more of a body recovery. One of the questions we should start asking =
is why we teach recovery and not investigation to the authorities and or =
divers trained to do this work. Like many accidents this should have =
been avoidable and I don't want myself or others to face a similar =
situation without adequate understanding of what went wrong and how it =
could have been avoided.
=20
I ask the following questions:
=20
1). If the incorrect arrow was in place as stated, is there any =
evidence the divers marked it with their arrow pointing out in the =
correct direction as they encountered this miss-directed arrow? They =
were no doubt trained to do so, and they certainly had to pass this =
incorrect arrow. Did they have their own arrows on their rigs? Each =
diver? Is it possible one of them placed or moved this arrow? Was it =
removed and checked for fingerprints?
=20
2). If the line did not blow downstream as previously posted, why =
did they deploy two reels? If primary reels, we're talking about a lot =
of line out in the cave so why the big gap. Were the reels tied end to =
end, or what?=20
=20
3). Are we not concerned with the possibility these guys broke the =
line on the way in and were not even aware of the fact?=20
=20
4). How do you explain two divers getting tangled up in line that =
apparently was in the restriction? Would that have not been most likely =
just the first diver? I'd like someone to explain this one to me. Didn't =
they have one or more knives and where were the knives located on their =
rigs?
Has anyone attempted to reenact this sequence? Reenactment is a =
basic technique of investigation. Were these divers so tangled up they =
couldn't swim? Hard to believe that's possible. And it is not clear to =
me if the diver on the ceiling, becoming buoyant after removing his gear =
was entangled, or was it his gear that was entangled? That really struck =
me as strange. Dell's last report mentions the fact "they stuck =
together," I read that as they were tied together. Big difference when =
it comes to attempting to assess the mental state of a couple of divers =
in trouble. And 500 lbs. left one set of tanks-why?
=20
5). What happened to the missing line upstream of the restriction? =
Was it tired off somewhere? Is it still there? Where? Sorry to keep =
coming back to this. I mean, did it swim upstream somehow? The first =
report from Dell said the line, once unentangled from the divers had =
been taken through the restriction and it didn't reach the standing end =
of the remaining line? Why? Again, where was the missing line? What was =
the distance upstream from the restriction to the first existent tie off =
on the permanent line. Were there any other tie offs between this point =
and the upstream existent tie off. What was the total length of the =
permanent line recovered and what was the total length of the line that =
was involved in the entanglement?
=20
7. What evidence is being used to support the possible conclusion =
that a knot joining two sections of line failed and therefore caused =
this accident. What types of knots are employed in this immediate area? =
Overhand, reef, what? And doesn't it stretch credibility that a knot =
that had held for who knows how long would just fail after they passed =
it?
=20
I'm sorry if this post offends anyone, I'm simply tired of hearing =
of another diving accident by unknown causes. There's so much here to be =
understood. Accident analysis was intended to be utilized, it's how we =
learn. As many others have pointed out, if we don't start training =
better divers, we may all be locked out soon.
=20
My sincere condolences to the families if they're reading this.
=20
JR Gordon=20
=20
=20
=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Dell Motes=20
To: gordonjr ; techdiver@aquanaut.com=20
Sent: Monday, October 25, 1999 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: Madison Blue Fatalities
=20
=20
Gordon and List,
A subsequent dive was made upstream with a few more facts to add =
to the scenario.
The two reels that had been deployed were in good working order, =
neither was jammed. The third was just laying there, in a stowed =
position.=20
The 900' permanent line marker arrow (upstream of the =
restriction) was facing INTO the cave, obviously the wrong direction. =
This explained some of the profile on the Niteks. It appears they made =
more than one trip back upstream to verify their position, because of =
mirror images on the profile.
We have no way of knowing who did this, nor do we expect any one =
to own up to it. There were several breaks and repairs in this area, and =
someone made a hasty mistake in arrow placement.=20
Had this not been in the wrong direction, they may have made it =
out, even with the other problems they had. This added to confusion and =
burned up valuable time they did not have.
The permanent line did not blow downstream, it was tied off =
right at the downstream side of the restriction. They were tangled up in =
the slack that had been in the restriction.=20
They did the line searches, they stuck together, they perished =
together.
This is still a wake up call as to what can happen.=20
You have to use MORE caution when in such a high traffic cave, =
for situations exactly like this. A large number of teams had been =
through this area since the initial line patch. No one took the time to =
do rectify this, and it became just one factor in many on this fatality. =
=20
You have to be constantly aware of all aspects, no matter how =
remote or unlikely they may seem.=20
You have to make every dive like it's exploration, alert and =
absorbing every thing you see and do.
A permanent guideline is just a convenience, not a crutch. How =
many people would use their reels with different size line and full of =
patches ?? Very few, I believe.
How good would your tie-offs and placement be if you knew you =
were coming out in zero visibility? I'd say very good, or you get killed =
or you wouldn't get very far, one of the two. =20
What kind of restrictions would you go through if you were the =
first EVER to be
there? Let me tell from experience, you consider very hard just =
how bad you want to see what's on the other side.=20
Line arrows are cheap, but how many people deploy their own when =
they see anything questionable? Your more likely to see them used in the =
middle of nowhere, as a personal goal or "look I've been this far".
Hell, I use arrows like Post It notes, but that doesn't mean =
carry 20 of them on your harness all lined up nice and neat for =
appearances only. I use them and remove them, very few are left in place =
and they are there for a subsequent dive.
This was preventable, not a mysterious occurrence that means =
revamping cave diving techniques or line size.
I'm glad to see that some good may come out of such a tragedy, =
because several have said it scared them. Accident analysis is =
invaluable in this respect, it causes people to look at themselves and =
the way they dive.=20
Treat every dive with respect, use the techniques you've been =
taught and use them often.
You 'll get more fulfillment out of being the best you can, and =
above all else you'll stand a much better chance of surviving something =
like this.=20
Dell Motes
Dive Rite
117 W.Washington St.
Lake City, Florida 32055 =20
www.dive-rite.com
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: gordonjr <jrgordonsenior@em*.ms*.co*>
To: techdiver@aquanaut.com <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Date: Saturday, October 23, 1999 4:09 AM
Subject: Madison Blue Fatalities
=20
=20
Dell,
=20
Did the body recovery team produced a formal "accident =
analysis report" for the deaths at Madison Blue, and if so could you =
please post it to the lists. Additionally, if there is any further info =
on this accident that you think might be educational or preventative, =
such as John Strohm's question about the type of knot, could you also =
please forward that to the lists.=20
=20
I hope this accident scares the hell out of every caver, I =
know it does me. I can't remember the last time I checked the condition =
of a knot when passing a main line splice? I know I won't soon pass one =
again without inspection.
=20
Dell thanks for your time and posts,
=20
JR Gordon
Los Angeles/Akumal
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Gordon,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>I don't
know =
how long it=20
will take for this message to reach techdiver, I can't wait all day for =
a=20
message approval request to come back.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Gordon, I fully understand your confusion. =
Unfortunately there=20
are many unanswered questions that I, nor anybody else can explain. This =
is an=20
occurrence with no witnesses and what little evidence is available can =
be=20
interpreted more than one way.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>We feel that our interpretation is the most likely =
scenario,=20
based on everything we have gathered. I will try to answer your =
questions=20
directly.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>1). If the incorrect arrow was in =
place as=20
stated, is there any evidence the divers marked it with their arrow =
pointing out=20
in the correct direction as they encountered this miss-directed arrow? =
They were=20
no doubt trained to do so, and they certainly had to pass this incorrect =
arrow.=20
Did they have their own arrows on their rigs? Each diver? Is it possible =
one of=20
them placed or moved this arrow? Was it removed and checked for=20
fingerprints?<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Reply; There is no evidence at this arrow other than =
it being=20
on the line and pointing in the wrong direction.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I'm sure they were trained as you say, that doesn't =
mean they=20
used the training or even saw the arrow until they were exiting and =
already in=20
trouble. Gordon, we have no way of knowing their thought process or how =
they=20
proceeded. We have no way of knowing what may have happened before they =
even got=20
to this arrow.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Yes, they had arrows on them, they also had clothes =
pins on=20
surgical tubing that they left in the back of the truck. The only thing =
we are=20
sure of is they didn't use the clothes pins, because they were in the=20
truck.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Sure, one of them could have moved this arrow or =
turned it=20
around. They are not here for us to ask them which one did it. No, it =
was not=20
removed and checked for finger prints. For one, it is doubtful that a =
diver with=20
fingers wrinkled from water exposure would even leave a readable print =
and two,=20
all that would tell us is that they touched it. What could be surmised =
from that=20
??</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>2). If the line did not blow downstream as previously posted, why =
did they=20
deploy two reels? If primary reels, we're talking about a lot of line =
out in the=20
cave so why the big gap. Were the reels tied end to end, or what? =
<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Reply; Gordon, I did not post that =
the line was=20
blown downstream. Will Smithers posted that from New York.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Not from =
Florida, not from=20
Madison county, and not after investigating the accident scene first=20
hand. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>As I stated in the last post, it is tied off just =
outside of=20
the restriction. Why did they deploy two reels ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The reels were tied off to the same spot, the third =
was laying=20
on the floor. I don't know why because there is no one left to=20
ask. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>3). Are we not concerned with the possibility these =
guys broke=20
the line on the way in and were not even aware of the fact? =
<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Reply; Of course this is a possibility, and likely. =
But how do=20
we know if this is what happened ?? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>4). How do you explain two divers getting tangled up =
in line=20
that apparently was in the restriction? Would that have not been most =
likely=20
just the first diver? I'd like someone to explain this one to me. Didn't =
they=20
have one or more knives and where were the knives located on their rigs?
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Has anyone attempted to reenact this =
sequence?=20
Reenactment is a basic technique of investigation. Were these divers so =
tangled=20
up they couldn't swim? Hard to believe that's possible. And it is not =
clear to=20
me if the diver on the ceiling, becoming buoyant after removing his gear =
was=20
entangled, or was it his gear that was entangled? That really struck me =
as=20
strange. Dell's last report mentions the fact "they<EM><STRONG>=20
</STRONG></EM>stuck<STRONG><EM> </EM></STRONG>together,"
I read =
that as=20
they were tied together. Big difference when it comes to attempting to =
assess=20
the mental state of a couple of divers in trouble. And 500 lbs. left one =
set of=20
tanks-why?</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Reply; I can't explain how both divers got tangled up and I don't =
know if=20
they encountered the slack line in the restriction or after they cleared =
it. How=20
do we know which one was the first diver ?? They had cleared the =
restriction,=20
and weren't exactly in some formal formation. Yes, they had knives. =
Again, I=20
don't have a clue why they didn't use them. In my first post it clearly =
states=20
how they were found, and that both divers and the removed gear were all=20
entangled as a group. If someone can assess the mental state of these =
two=20
deceased divers, I'm all ears. Having been involved in a fatality of my=20
exploration partner, I can tell you that it is indescribable. </DIV>
<DIV>500 lbs left in one set of tanks, again we have no way of knowing =
what=20
transpired during air sharing or an attempt at air =
sharing. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>5). What happened to the missing line upstream of the restriction? =
Was it=20
tired off somewhere? Is it still there? Where? Sorry to keep coming back =
to=20
this. I mean, did it swim upstream somehow? The first report from Dell =
said the=20
line, once unentangled from the divers had been taken through the =
restriction=20
and it didn't reach the standing end of the remaining line? Why? Again, =
where=20
was the missing line? What was the distance upstream from the =
restriction to the=20
first existent tie off on the permanent line. Were there any other tie =
offs=20
between this point and the upstream existent tie off. What was the total =
length=20
of the permanent line recovered and what was the total length of the =
line that=20
was involved in the entanglement?<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Reply; The upstream line was simply laying slack just outside of =
the=20
restriction. When Mike attempted to go through during recovery, with the =
downstream slack, he stated he didn't have enough. If he encountered =
resistance,=20
good sense told him to just tie on and go through with his reel. He =
didn't need=20
to back up again and trash our visibility during investigation. It has =
since=20
been reconnected. We did not measure the slack line, that would tell us=20
nothing.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>7. What evidence is being used to support the possible conclusion =
that a=20
knot joining two sections of line failed and therefore caused this =
accident.=20
What types of knots are employed in this immediate area? Overhand, =
reef,=20
what? And doesn't it stretch credibility that a knot that had held =
for who=20
knows how long would just fail after they passed it?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Reply; Again, someone elses post mentioned knots, not mine. My =
original=20
post states the line was severed.</DIV>
<DIV>This makes the rest of the questions irrelevant.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Gordon, </DIV>
<DIV>As you can see, we don't have all the answers and never will. There =
is no=20
one left alive to answer the questions you have.</DIV>
<DIV>I'm not sure what your trying to accomplish with the WAK 2 comment =
and=20
Florida Law enforcement, but frankly it offends me.</DIV>
<DIV>A body recovery is considered a crime scene until proven otherwise. =
Law=20
enforcement depends on our knowledge base and experience to tell them as =
best we=20
can what happened.</DIV>
<DIV>Due to typical dive site hearsay, we were under the impression =
these guys=20
were on scooters and had gone into the Courtyard. A difficult dive in =
itself,=20
much less bring out two bodies and gear.</DIV>
<DIV>We spent much time and preparation, fearing and preparing for an =
incredibly=20
difficult recovery.</DIV>
<DIV>As it was, Lamar and I spent 91 minutes and 3 trips back to the =
scene in=20
near zero visibility to get everything out.</DIV>
<DIV>We don't go in and yank deceased divers out without careful =
consideration=20
of all involved, and do our best to figure out EXACTLY what happened for =
the=20
good of all.</DIV>
<DIV>I have already stated this is no mystery, simply many factors that =
all=20
played a role in an awful tragedy.</DIV>
<DIV>You can look at several factors and scenarios and see human =
error.</DIV>
<DIV>I guarantee every cave diver, has made the same errors at one time =
or=20
another in our career. </DIV>
<DIV>Unfortunately, a combination of these type of errors and other =
factors took=20
the life of these two men.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dell Motes<BR>Dive Rite<BR>117 W.Washington St.<BR>Lake City, =
Florida=20
32055 <BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.dive-rite.com">www.dive-rite.com</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </FONT></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
</B>gordonjr <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:jrgordonsenior@em*.ms*.co*">jrgordonsenior@email.msn.com=
</A>><BR><B>To:=20
</B>Dell Motes <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:dell@di*.co*">dell@dive-rite.com</A>><BR><B>Date:=
=20
</B>Tuesday, October 26, 1999 1:53 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re:
Madison =
Blue=20
Fatalities<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">To the list,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Dell, thanks for the additional =
post.=20
Unfortunately this new data just adds to my confusion. I'm asking =
these=20
following questions because I don't understand, and not because I'm =
trying=20
to be a smart ass or question your report. Your contributions to =
diving and=20
education are numerous and stand on their own =
merit. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">When I look at the =
resources being=20
committed, and the depth of the investigation being performed =
tonight=20
in South Dakota it makes me wonder: do Richard Siaba, =
Kevin Lymn,=20
their fellow cavers, and their families deserve any =
less?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Accident Analysis should start =
with a=20
really thorough Accident Investigation<EM><STRONG>.
</STRONG></EM>I =
don't=20
know what Florida Police do or don't do in diving related accidents=20
(remember WAK 2), but what I've read so far seems to be more =
of a body=20
recovery. <FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">One of the questions we =
should start=20
asking is why we teach recovery and not investigation to the =
authorities and=20
or divers trained to do this work. Lik</FONT>e =
many</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"> accidents this should have been =
avoidable=20
and I don't want myself or others to face a similar situation =
without=20
adequate understanding of what went wrong and how it could have been =
avoided.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">I ask the following=20
questions:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><BR>1). If
the =
incorrect=20
arrow was in place as stated, is there any evidence the divers =
marked=20
it with their arrow pointing out in the correct direction as =
they=20
encountered this miss-directed arrow? They were no doubt trained to =
do so,=20
and they certainly had to pass this incorrect arrow. Did they =
have=20
their own arrows on their rigs? Each diver? Is it possible one of =
them=20
placed or moved this arrow? Was it removed and checked for=20
fingerprints?<BR><BR>2). If the line did not blow downstream as =
previously=20
posted, why did they deploy two reels? If primary reels, we're =
talking=20
about a lot of line out in the cave so why the big gap. Were the =
reels tied=20
end to end, or what? <BR><BR>3). Are we not concerned with the =
possibility=20
these guys broke the line on the way in and were not even aware of =
the fact?=20
<BR><BR>4). How do you explain two divers getting tangled up in =
line=20
that apparently was in the restriction? Would that have not been =
most likely=20
just the first diver? I'd like someone to explain this one to me. =
Didn't=20
they have one or more knives and where were the knives located =
on their=20
rigs?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Has anyone attempted to reenact =
this=20
sequence? Reenactment is a basic technique of investigation. Were =
these=20
divers so tangled up they couldn't swim? Hard to believe that's =
possible.=20
And it is not clear to me if the diver on the ceiling, becoming =
buoyant=20
after removing his gear was entangled, or was it his gear that was=20
entangled? That really struck me as strange. Dell's last report =
mentions the=20
fact "they<EM><STRONG>
</STRONG></EM>stuck<STRONG><EM>=20
</EM></STRONG>together," I read that as they were tied =
together. Big=20
difference when it comes to attempting to assess the mental state of =
a=20
couple of divers in trouble. And 500 lbs. left one set of=20
tanks-why?<BR><BR>5). What happened to the missing line =
upstream of the=20
restriction? Was it tired off somewhere? Is it still there? Where? =
Sorry to=20
keep coming back to this. I mean, did it swim upstream somehow? The =
first=20
report from Dell said the line, once unentangled from the divers had =
been=20
taken through the restriction and it didn't reach the standing end =
of the=20
remaining line? Why? Again, where was the missing line? What was the =
distance upstream from the restriction to the first existent tie off =
on the=20
permanent line. Were there any other tie offs between this point and =
the=20
upstream existent tie off. What was the total length of the =
permanent=20
line recovered and what was the total length of the line that was =
involved=20
in the entanglement?<BR><BR>7. What evidence is being used to =
support the=20
possible conclusion that a knot joining two sections of line failed =
and=20
therefore caused this accident. What types of knots are =
employed in=20
this immediate area? Overhand, reef, what? And doesn't =
it=20
stretch credibility that a knot that had held for who knows how long =
would=20
just fail after they passed it?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">I'm sorry if this post offends =
anyone, I'm=20
simply tired of hearing of another diving accident =
by unknown=20
causes. There's so much here to be understood. Accident =
analysis was=20
intended to be utilized, it's how we learn. As many others have =
pointed=20
out, if we don't start training better divers, we may all =
be locked out=20
soon.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">My sincere condolences to the =
families if=20
they're reading this.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">JR =
Gordon</FONT> <BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:dell@di*.co*" =
title=3Ddell@di*.co*>Dell=20
Motes</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:jrgordonsenior@em*.ms*.co*"=20
title=3Djrgordonsenior@em*.ms*.co*>gordonjr</A> ; <A=20
href=3D"mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com"=20
title=3Dtechdiver@aquanaut.com>techdiver@aquanaut.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October
25, =
1999 9:08=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Madison
Blue =
Fatalities</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Gordon and =
List,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>A subsequent dive was made =
upstream with=20
a few more facts to add to the scenario.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The two reels that had been =
deployed=20
were in good working order, neither was jammed. The third was =
just=20
laying there, in a stowed position. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The 900' permanent line =
marker arrow=20
(upstream of the restriction) was facing INTO the cave, =
obviously the=20
wrong direction. This explained some of the profile on the =
Niteks. It=20
appears they made more than one trip back upstream to verify =
their=20
position, because of mirror images on the profile.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT
size=3D2>We =
have no way of=20
knowing who did this, nor do we expect any one to own up to it. =
There=20
were several breaks and repairs in this area, and someone made a =
hasty=20
mistake in arrow placement. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Had this not been in the =
wrong=20
direction, they may have made it out, even with the other =
problems they=20
had. This added to confusion and burned up valuable time they =
did not=20
have.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT
size=3D2>The =
permanent line=20
did not blow downstream, it was tied off right at the downstream =
side of=20
the restriction. They were tangled up in the slack that had been =
in the=20
restriction. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT
size=3D2>They =
did the line=20
searches, they stuck together, they perished =
together.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>This is still a wake up call as to what can =
happen.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>You have to use MORE caution when in such a =
high=20
traffic cave, for situations exactly like this. A large number =
of teams=20
had been through this area since the initial line patch. No one =
took the=20
time to do rectify this, and it became just one factor in many =
on this=20
fatality. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>You have to be constantly aware of all =
aspects, no=20
matter how remote or unlikely they may seem. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>You have to make every dive like it's =
exploration,=20
alert and absorbing every thing you see and do.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>A permanent guideline is just a convenience, =
not a=20
crutch. How many people would use their reels with different =
size line=20
and full of patches ?? Very few, I believe.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>How good would your tie-offs and placement =
be if you=20
knew you were coming out in zero visibility? I'd say very =
good, or=20
you get killed or you wouldn't get very far, one of the =
two. =20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>What kind of restrictions would you go =
through if you=20
were the first EVER to be</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>there? Let me tell from experience, =
you consider=20
very hard just how bad you want to see what's on the other side. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Line arrows are cheap, but how many people =
deploy=20
their own when they see anything questionable? Your more likely =
to see=20
them used in the middle of nowhere, as a personal goal or =
"look=20
I've been this far".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hell, I use arrows like Post It notes, but =
that=20
doesn't mean carry 20 of them on your harness all lined up nice =
and neat=20
for appearances only. I use them and remove them, very few are =
left in=20
place and they are there for a subsequent dive.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>This was preventable, not a mysterious =
occurrence that=20
means revamping cave diving techniques or line =
size.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I'm glad to see that some good may come out =
of such a=20
tragedy, because several have said it scared them. Accident =
analysis is=20
invaluable in this respect, it causes people to look at =
themselves=20
and the way they dive. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Treat every dive with respect, use the =
techniques=20
you've been taught and use them often.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>You 'll get more fulfillment out of being =
the best you=20
can, and above all else you'll stand a much better chance of =
surviving=20
something like this. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Dell Motes<BR>Dive Rite<BR>117
W.Washington=20
St.<BR>Lake City, Florida 32055 <BR><A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.dive-rite.com">www.dive-rite.com</A><BR> &n=
bsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><B>-----Original=20
Message-----</B><BR><B>From: </B>gordonjr <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:jrgordonsenior@em*.ms*.co*">jrgordonsenior@email.msn.com=
</A>><BR><B>To:=20
</B><A =
href=3D"mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com">techdiver@aquanaut.com</A>=20
<<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com">techdiver@aquanaut.com</A>><BR>=
<B>Date:=20
</B>Saturday, October 23, 1999 4:09 AM<BR><B>Subject: =
</B>Madison Blue=20
Fatalities<BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-LEFT: 5px"></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Dell,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Did the body =
recovery team=20
produced a formal "accident analysis report" for =
the=20
deaths at Madison Blue, and if so could you please post it =
to the=20
lists. Additionally, if there is any further info on this =
accident=20
that you think might be educational or preventative, such as =
John=20
Strohm's question about the type of knot, could you =
also please=20
forward that to the lists. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I hope this accident scares the hell out =
of=20
every caver, I know it does me. I can't remember the last =
time I=20
checked the condition of a knot when passing a main =
line=20
splice? I know I won't soon pass one again without =
inspection.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Dell thanks for your =
time and=20
posts,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">JR
Gordon</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Los=20
=
Angeles/Akumal</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQU
OTE></BLOCK=
QUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0082_01BF1FA3.E1790BC0--
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