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I think I'm starting to see the difference here. Personally, I'd love to move up by you, boats are bigger with lots of space and all the divers doing similar profiles. This would be great! I typically don't do multiple day diving trips. I'm not saying right or wrong here, just the way the operations are run and dives are performed. I rarely charter an entire boat. Typically I'm going on an open boat, like most people up here if they are diving from a larger boat. With this you end up having people who don't know each other, have different experience levels and are doing different profiles. My artifact buddy and I will plan between ourselves and let the crew know the expected in-water time. From other conversations I've had with others off list, here's the situation. You have people on the same boat that are either doing one dive or a repeat dive. In each of these groups you have dive teams doing decompression and those doing no deco profiles. To give an example, you can have people entering the water for a first dive at 9:00am. Some of these divers will come up in 20 minutes adhering to no deco limits while others will do say 90 minutes of run time. Usually while the decompressing divers are surfacing (say 10:00am) the one dive people are getting in, we pass on the line. The same thing happens when the one dive people are coming up, the repeat divers are getting in (say noon time). This gives the situation where people are always getting in or getting out. Trying to plan when to send up artifacts will probably end up with the artifact being in someone else's bag. If you see a nice big porthole sitting there (a really rare occurrence) and you say, "I'll leave it here and tell the crew I'm going to bring it up next time", someone else is going to send it up. Better to hook a bag to it, tie it to the wreck and send it up than to have it end up in someone else display case! Seems you have larger boats than we have here. I think the biggest boat I dive from is the Wahoo or Seeker, both are about 68 feet long I think. The typical number of divers on these boats varies but a numbers of 12 to 18 are common. That's roughly between 3.5 to 5.5 feet per person on a one day trip. I think the main problem is there isn't a set schedule because everyone on the boat is not one big team with one goal. You've got probably up to 8 different teams in the water all with different entry times and profiles. I think this is the difference between your dives and ours. Seems your diving is from a boat where the entire team dives similar profiles. This isn't the case on an open boat. Can't help/comment on the situation where you have different groups on the same boat with different plans. I can't see a way around this. I don't know enough people doing the kinds of diving I do to coordinate such a plan. I don't have a solution and it's time to leave work and spend some time with my family. Art. -----Original Message----- From: Sean T. Stevenson [mailto:ststev@un*.co*] Sent: Sunday, August 29, 1999 4:05 PM To: Paltz, Art; techdiver@aquanaut.com Subject: RE: Jersey Up Line I can see recovering an artifact if it is being restored for research purposes or otherwise for the public good, but do not condone souvenir hunting. 'Nuff said on that. To clarify - I do dive amongst commercial traffic, but as much as possible try to stay out of the way of the large deep sea vessels. This is a common sense thing. Fly both an alpha flag and a sport diver flag, but only dive in the presence of traffic that can reasonably be expected to alter course for you. Using a live boat ensures that the boat will always be there when you surface, but this requires proper planning of these dives, coordinating bottom times, doing reasonable decos, staggering teams, competent boat crew, etc. You can't expect anything but a CF if you don't do sufficient planning. The team agrees on a plan, and then has a second briefing in the presence of the boat operator to deal with any additional concerns. Comfort is important on boat trips. Sufficient space for tanks and other gear, food, clothing, sleeping space (even on day trips, you should be able to accomodate one or two people lying down), and "personal space" make for a much more enjoyable venture. 8 feet per diver is not unreasonable, provided you keep to a reasonable number of divers. The charter operators like to have as many bodies on board as possible, because this is how they make their money. It is also an invitation to a CF. Most of the boats I charter, usually for multi-day trips, are large, seaworthy, comfortable platforms. The chase boat becomes necessary just to facilitate diver entries/exits. On day trips you can get by with less, depending on the transit distance, but when you consider the costs involved, why not be comfortable? When raising objects, this is not done spontaneously. The boat must be made aware ahead of time, or do it as a second dive. Form a plan, have the surface clear the necessary deck space, and swim a line down. Secure the object, attach your bag(s), if possible use line signals to notify the surface, initiate the lift and get the hell out of the way. Unless there is a problem, it is now the boat's responsibility. (Be sure to verify that the boat can handle the load if you lose the lift for some reason). -Sean On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 10:28:25 -0400, Paltz, Art wrote: >Sorry for replying so late but it seems Tech Diver is taking a really long >time to respond with approvals (like a day). I also wasn't on-line >yesterday. > >Good reply Sean, I see where you're coming from. Things are a little >different here from in Canada. You're allowed to be in the shipping lanes. >This is where most of the good wrecks are. Typically when sending up an >artifact we'll use a much smaller line, like from a reel. I personally >would only use my up-line in an emergency. Being in shipping lanes I don't >want to drift from the boat, this isn't an issue where you are. If an >artifact does drift off then I'd usually take my scooter when I surfaced and >chased it down towing a Baywatch line and buoy and attach it to the bag. >I'd then scooter back to the boat while the crew drags the bag in. > >Wow, how big are the boats you dive from? 8 feet per diver is a really big >boat. Typically here a 6-pack is 35ft. That would have to be a 48 foot >boat using your calculations. The chase boats you use are really big too. >Heck, this is practically the size of some of the smaller 6-packs. I've >been on 6-packs as small as 29 foot. Usually when we charter these it's >MUCH more comfortable with 4 divers. This is pretty close to your >calculation of 32 feet. > >Not going to debate photographing artifacts vs. bringing them up and >restoring them. We all have our own opinions. > >When sending something up from the bottom, how do you get the line to the >people on the bottom? On some boats if they know you are sending something >up, you'll shoot it from the bottom and a crew member will retrieve it for >you. Typically this needs to be scheduled with someone before you get in >the water. Otherwise the boats probably just going to see if there are >bubbles under the bag to know if someone's ascending from it. > >Art. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sean T. Stevenson [mailto:ststev@un*.co*] > Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 10:41 PM > To: Paltz, Art; techdiver@aquanaut.com > Subject: RE: Jersey Up Line > > > These are all fairly simple questions to answer. > > Most of the objects I lift are bodies, which don't weigh >that much > underwater. These must be tended in a controlled ascent to >preserve > physical evidence and minimize the risk of barotrauma to the >deceased, > to make the autopsy easier. For lifting large objects, fill >your bags > just enough to float them, and make sure your bridle is >secure. Then > establish a line from the SURFACE to the bridle, instead of >from the > bottom. Make the bags slightly positive and have the >surface take up > the slack on their end, via a cleat or capstan. This way, >if the bag > dumps or ruptures, the object will not sustain damage (or >damage the > site beneath) when it falls to the bottom, but rather will >just hang > from the boat so you can re-rig it. I try to make a habit >of > preserving wrecks. If I find something interesting, I >photograph it, > map it or catalog it for future reference, instead of >pillaging it. > The research is easier to do when the artifacts are left >alone. When > diving amongst commercial traffic, the boat operator >participates in > the marine traffic control system whether mandatory or not >for the size > of vessel. This gives a heads up to the ships that diving >is underway. > Diving > within the boundaries of shipping lanes (as established by >Transport > Canada and noted on Canadian Hydrographic Service charts) is >illegal > here, except under special permit which requires Coast Guard > notification and VHF security transmissions to shipping from >Coast > Guard Radio and Traffic Services. I don't usually dive in >the midst of > heavy commercial traffic. Of course, the shipping lanes >here were > designed to take advantage of safe (read: deep) water for >ships, so > shipwrecks within this zone are few and far between, except >within > Vancouver Harbour. Drifting deco is not SOP on every dive. >Usually I > use the anchor line, unless it has moved or pulled free. In >this > scenario, I would shoot a bag and drift deco under that. >The chase > boat (27 foot Zodiac Hurricane or aluminum skiff of similar >size) > recovers the diver when he surfaces. Chase boat has water, >oxygen, > first aid, extra gas, and a support diver or two for >monitoring > drifting decompresees. I do not like to tie into wrecks for >deco > because I don't like unnecessarily cluttering the wreck with >line > (which is non-biodegradable synthetic so I can count on its >strength), > I don't like having to fight to maintain my deco stop depth >if the > current picks up and the scope of the line changes. More >exhertion > means less effective decompression. If the weather or >current gets too > much to make the logistics easy, the dive is called, period. >As for > the Jersey reel thing, I am not a fan of this device because >of the > ease with which it can slip from your hand, the fact that it >requires > two hands to operate, and the amount of time it takes to >recover line > as compared to a reel. Also they tend to be very large and >their shape > is inherently an entrapment hazard. For these or any large >tools, use > two surgical tubing loops through the bottom edge of the >backplate. > Clip off to the rear d-ring, and use the tubing to keep the >tools tight > to the plate and out of the flow. I have successfully >carried wrenches > and body bags this way. > > Rule of thumb for chartering: Primary vessel is 8 feet of >boat per > diver, minimum. Chase boat should accomodate 1 driver, 1 >support > person, and 1 buddy team (likely 2 or 3 persons), + gear. > > -Sean > > > On Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:04:43 -0400, Paltz, Art wrote: > > >Don't want to debate this one. I think you are living in a >utopian world. > >Kind of hard for the average dive boat six pack (35 ft >long) to have a chase > >boat and the surface support you talk about. Remember, we >don't have the > >dive industry of say Florida where there are tons of boats >and they are big. > >Up here there usually is the captain and a mate or 2. Add >in 6 divers with > >2 sets of doubles plus stages and the scene starts to get a >little crowded. > >The Jersey Up-line does not have to have sisal, mine >doesn't. My up-line > >stores very neatly and is easy to deploy. Try putting ª >line on a dinky > >little 5" cave or wreck reel. Heck, I don't think you'd be >able to fit 250' > >of 1/8"stuff either, now we're back to the 1/16th stuff. >Now if you say you > >don't need this much line then you're not going to far with >it as a > >penetration line. Oh my God, now we need 2 again! :-) > > > >Ever try bringing up a 275 block and tackle and controlling >it while you > >come up the line and deco with it? We're not talking about >a 25 porthole > >here. Heck I'd probably just stick that sucker it in my >bag, attach it to > >my crotch D-Ring and carry it up. Bigger items like >hatches and such > >require different methods and taking it up with you would >be nuts! > >Honestly, one of the main reasons for tying the artifact >into the wreck is > >should the bag dump, you can go back down and hopefully >follow the up-line > >and retrieve the artifact and bag. Not everyone has a >Halcyon closed bag. > >Heck last time we used one of these it filled with about >1/16 water. Need > >to figure that one out..... > > > >I guess I must really be a Jersey diver. I've done the >buoy thing in > >Florida before. I found that when the surface current is >running at a > >different speed/direction than the bottom it was not a >pleasant dive. > >Besides, what do you do when you go inside a wreck? Having >the buoy > >bouncing along the roof silting everything up would not be >a good > >idea....... Just being sarcastic! > > > >Again, you're forgetting the shipping lanes. Container >ships routinely come > >within ® mile of the dive boat, or closer. Then we're >forgetting the > >fishing boats..... Strong current and your in their props >within 15-30 > >minutes. A chase boat is fine but if you can tie into the >wreck and not > >float off, why isn't this optimal? I think you're trying >to ram the way you > >dive into an environment where it's isn't optimal. I don't >think you're > >going to be able to convince me that drifting, with or >without a chase boat > >is safer and less stress full than hanging from an up-line >secured to a 100 > >lift bag. > > > >Here's a question that I really don't know the answer to >(not being > >sarcastic). In YOUR environment, when the chase boat goes >out to get you, > >what do they do? Do they tow you back or just hang out >with you? I assume > >they can't hang out with you since other divers are popping >up all over the > >place. Plus we're forgetting the ships, now you have an >800 foot container > >ship going 18 knots baring down on the diver on the bag and >another in the > >dingy. Towing back doesn't seem pleasant either. 2 knot >current away from > >the boat and the tow boat pulling you at say another 2 >knots, that's a 4 > >knot current to hang from. Doesn't seem too pleasant to >me. Again, I'd > >rather tie in to the wreck and just hang from the 2 knot >current. If there > >was a stronger current like say 5 knots we would just not >dive. > > > >Art. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sean T. Stevenson >[mailto:ststev@un*.co*] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 9:09 PM > > To: Paltz, Art; techdiver@aquanaut.com > > Subject: RE: Jersey Up Line > > > > > > There is more to a successful technical >diving venture than > >just > > competent divers. Effective planning and >competent surface > >support > > personnel are mandatory. The lift bag is >not intended to be > >chased > > down by a ship, but rather by the >(mandatory) chase boat, > >while the > > primary vessel remains at anchor. A >competent boat crew > >comes in handy > > here. Deco is not exclusively done adrift. >Planned drift > >dives > > actually make use of a towed float ball, so >the live boat > >can follow > > the divers at all times. The reel and lift >bag for deco is > >just a > > contingency. There really is no reason to >tie into a wreck > >for an > > ascent. (For some reason, NY/NJ divers seem >to feel more > >comfortable > > when they're tied to something. Hmmm, that >could go to > >explaining the > > bondage wings..., but I digress.) On >wrecks, ordinarily the > >ascent and > > deco is performed along the anchor line, >unless strong > >current warrants > > shooting a bag to do a drifting deco, or if >you return to > >the anchor > > line to find it is not there, you shoot the >bag. Your > >surface > > personnel should be aware of their position >and if their > >anchor is > > dragging, and have responded accordingly. >They should have > >the chase > > boat ready and lookouts posted to spot your >bag. Sound > >excessive? > > Then you are not diving with adequate >surface support. As > >Jim > > mentioned, the biodegradeable sisal line >that is typically > >employed on > > the Jersey uplines has a tendency to become >weak and fail at > >the worst > > possible time - in an emergency. Braided >nylon line or > >equivalent is a > > better choice. If 1/16 is unsuitable for >the environment, > >such as in > > wrecks, then use larger or more durable line >- just put it > >on a well > > designed reel instead of the Jersey spool. >The reel is used > >for laying > > line during a penetration, and for deploying >a bag if > >necessary. One > > tool for two functions - starting to make >sense? The reel > >also allows > > deployment with one hand only, leaving one >hand free to deal > >with > > emergencies. It stows easily and cleanly, >and is deployable > >in > > seconds. For raising artifacts, why not >just tend the bag, > >keeping a > > controlled rate of ascent (with you) instead >of tying it in > >and sending > > it rocketing to the surface. Just hand it >off to support > >divers at a > > deco stop. You are diving with shallow >support divers, > >aren't you? > > Better yet, leave the damned wrecks alone so >others can > >enjoy. Just a > > thought. > > > > -Sean > > > > > > > > On Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:09:28 -0400, Paltz, >Art wrote: > > > > >Sean, > > > > > >I think one of the reasons you don't see >them used is > >because the divers are > > >doing drift diving. At least for NY and NJ >the reason we > >have so many great > > >wrecks in one concentrated spot is because >this area is the > >entrance to NY > > >and Newark/Elizabeth harbors. Thinking >that an approaching > >ship is going to > > >be able to see your dinky lift bag or >sausage is nuts. The > >dive boars > > >anchor into the wreck site. Drifting means >the boat's got > >to pick you up. > > >Very difficult to do when the boats got >other divers in the > >water. > > > > > >A container ship hit Ambrose Light tower a >few years back. > >It stands out of > > >the water about 150 feet and is probably 75 >foot by 75 foot > >at the base > > >(probably bigger). If you think they'll >see a free > >floating bag and worry > > >about it you'd be fish food. > > > > > >Using a wreck reel with 1/16 inch line on >it won't really > >cut it either. We > > >regularly send up artifacts on bags and tie >them into the > >wreck with wreck > > >or cave line and about 50% of the time we >end up chasing > >the bag down cause > > >the line has been cut on the wreck. I >don't know about the > >wrecks in your > > >area but in the NE they are all rusty and >sharp. It's > >easily cuts through > > >thin line quickly. > > > > > >Some say always use a wreck reel and tie in >near the anchor > >line. This is > > >also a good option assuming that a). the >anchor line will > >be there when you > > >return and b). your wreck line won't >accidentally be cut. > >Anchors come > > >dislodged from the wreck even if they are >tied in or have > >permanent > > >moorings. I've also seen divers get >tangled in others > >wreck line and > > >instead of waiting for their buddy to >untangle them they > >whip out the knife > > >and cut it. This naturally poses a problem >to the diver > >expecting the wreck > > >line to lead them back to the anchor line. >I have in this > >situation re-tied > > >the persons wreck line. > > > > > >Not bashing just giving the reasoning for >carrying an > >up-reel of some type. > > >I really don't want to start up another >"Jersey Up-Reel" > >thread. This one > > >was tiresome last time. > > > > > >Art. > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Sean T. Stevenson > >[mailto:ststev@un*.co*] > > > Sent: Wednesday, August >25, 1999 1:41 AM > > > To: >goindown@be*.ne* > > > Cc: George Irvine; Jim >Cobb; > >techdiver@aquanaut.com > > > Subject: Re: Jersey >Up Line > > > > > > I can't tell if this is a >tongue in cheek > >sarcastic reply or > > >if this > > > guy really didn't get the >joke. If it is > >the latter case, > > >might I > > > suggest quitting diving and >taking up > >golf... > > > > > > Chris, seriously... these >upline reels are > >completely > > >unnecessary. > > > I'm guessing you are diving >on the Atlantic > >coast? Take a > > >look at how > > > everyone else in the world >does this and ask > >yourself why > > >you do not > > > see these upline reels used >anywhere else. > > > > > > -Sean > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:18:55 >-0400, Chris > >Gregory wrote: > > > > > > >Would that same buddy be >there to retrieve > >it should you > > >need to shoot a > > > >bag, and if he's not >available what are the > >"DIR" > > >alternatives? > > > >Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Send mail for the >`techdiver' mailing list > >to > > >`techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe >requests to > > >`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > >-- > > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list >to > >`techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > >`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > > > > > >-- > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to >`techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to >`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. 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